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Post by Kirby on Apr 28, 2010 13:45:33 GMT -8
How, exactly?
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Post by carebear on Apr 28, 2010 14:03:05 GMT -8
Derek Webb's latest album has a song in it called Stockholm Syndrome and it shows his views somewhat on homosexuality:
You say you always treat people like you like to be I guess you love being hated for your sexuality You love when people put words in your mouth 'Bout what you believe, make you sound like a freak 'Cause if you really believe what you say you believe You wouldn't be so damn reckless with the words you speak Wouldn't silently consent when the liars speak Denyin' all the dyin' of the remedy Tell me, brother, what matters more to you? Tell me, sister, what matters more to you? If I can tell what's in your heart by what comes out of your mouth Then it sure looks to me like being straight is all it's about It looks like being hated for all the wrong things Like chasin' the wind while the pendulum swings 'Cause we can talk and debate until we're blue in the face About the language and tradition that he's comin' to save Meanwhile we sit just like we don't give a ---- About 50,000 people who are dyin' today Tell me, brother, what matters more to you? Tell me, sister, what matters more to you?
So my question is, how do we show love to the gay community as Derek seems to want us to (and God does too) without promoting homosexuality and "ok"ing it? Obviously we have a huge issue we need to deal with (Christians being seen as haters) but how do we change that without saying it's ok? Because like Vio said in the discussion on sunday, it seems like the gay community will not feel like we "love them" until we tell them homosexuality is just fine.
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Post by carebear on Apr 28, 2010 14:36:20 GMT -8
Kirby wrote:
In my opinion it’s one thing to be a friend with and love (as Derek wants to do) someone struggling with homosexuality and it’s another to go on tour with and support someone who will use that platform to share her belief that God approves homosexuality. It will only confuse and deceive Christians.
Honestly I don’t think we should as Christians argue over this issue too much because it generally gets no where. What I think we need to do is cleanse ourselves and die to our flesh daily and walk with the Spirit. If we do this, we will know what God wants us to say and do and He will move in power. This will help people no matter where they are and God (not flesh) will prevail in all of our lives. We are fighting against principalities, not against man.
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Post by Josh on Apr 28, 2010 16:19:38 GMT -8
That said I think it is interesting that Jennifer regularly referred to herself as a person of faith rather than as a Christian. Especially since her whole premise was that you can be both a lesbian and a Christian at the same time. I wonder if the change of terms is intentional? The second is that if I were Queen of the World and could force everyone to do what I wanted, one of my first decrees would be that no Christian can use the whole "Adam and Steve" phrase ever again! I find it soooo offensive and on the level of grade school playground verbal insults and certainly not an intellectual argument for anything. To me using a stupid statement/argument like that voids everything you have said before and after! As for Ted, he still sounds like a televangelist to me.... My sentiments exactly. Did you catch when Jennifer started to say Christian and then changed it? I think it signals that she's moving in more "unitarian" type circles. And, as well, Adam and Steve? Come on!!! We can do better than that! And I was very troubled by the fact that the pastor didn't once make the distinction between homosexual tendencies and behavior. The whole Larry King format is, as you said, just tabloid-esque. I'm actually pretty disappointed with Knapp for utilizing that format for this discussion. At first it seemed (in the original interview) like the point of her disclosure was personal but now it seems like she's on a "raise awareness" crusade. It's very frustrating to me in reading through other blogs and websites on this whole Knapp thing how so many Christians don't understand the biblical teaching on "judging" correctly- just blindly assuming, as even Ted seemed to be doing (you'd think he'd know better), that we are never to rebuke other believers for sin. It's just simply not true that we are always to let God convict people directly. How could you be a reader of the New Testament and not understand that? I suspect many Christians haven't really taken the time to read the Bible for themselves.
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Post by christopher on Apr 28, 2010 16:46:25 GMT -8
But I don't even know Derek Webb. I like several of his songs on the Mockingbird album, but other than that, I know nothing about the guy.
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Post by Josh on Apr 28, 2010 17:34:00 GMT -8
I said I was joking! You, however, are the one to introduce him to me.
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Post by Kirby on Apr 28, 2010 17:53:32 GMT -8
carebear wrote: Yeah, I don't want to argue about it. I was just curious as to why you said that. I understand your point of view. Josh wrote: Marcus will be happy to hear that!
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Post by christopher on Apr 28, 2010 17:55:00 GMT -8
Carrie wrote:
I wonder if there are gays and lesbians out there asking each other "How do we show love to Christians without promoting Christianity?" ;D
My guess is that it begins by not putting them in a class of their own (i.e. "gay community"). After all, we always say that homosexuality is on par with all other sin, but we never hear people ask "How do we show love to the fibbers community without condoning lying?". I had to learn that the hard way.
People are individuals, with their own unique set of baggage and struggles.
I'm not sure we can make a sweeping generalization like that. Sure, there will be those who are more militant and cantankerous, but I think they would be the minority, and frankly, there are just as many Christians like that too. I think most people have a brain and can discern what the majority of Christians believe about this issue without us wearing it on our T-shirt. But I suspect that we'll find that the majority of people are reasonable enough to not be offended by that if we simply treat them with the same respect and dignity we would extend to anyone else.
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Post by Josh on Apr 28, 2010 18:29:43 GMT -8
I'd like to believe this, but I'm not so sure. But the more we attempt to find out the better.
;D
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Post by michelle on Apr 28, 2010 18:54:44 GMT -8
Josh wrote: Marcus will be happy to hear that! I was just going to say that!
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Post by carebear on Apr 28, 2010 19:30:28 GMT -8
So if we don't wear it on our T-shirt because almost everyone knows where a Christian stands on the issue, after we love them and get to know them and treat them as an individual, what do we do? We just move as the spirit tells us? Speak what the spirit tells us? Because I wouldn't really know how to help counsel them (if they wanted it) like I would know how to counsel a fibber or a stealer.... I'm almost certain God would move as He wanted to and I don't need to worry. But my human mind is like, "So after I love and befriend them, how do I help them out of sin?" Because everyone knows most other sins are wrong even though they do them, but nowadays homosexuality is considered "not wrong".....
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Post by Josh on Apr 28, 2010 20:21:18 GMT -8
There are definitely those who do have experience in the struggle against homosexual desires, and it is important to help point our struggling friends to those resources (groups, books, websites)
One of the best things we can do to help them is to recognize how holistic the battle is and how it usually doesn't have quick and simple results.
What our friends who deal with these desires need most are friends they can be honest around and who are willing to be honest with them about our own struggles. They also need friends who spur them on to righteousness- like we all do.
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Post by christopher on Apr 28, 2010 21:38:15 GMT -8
So, after watching the Larry King thing in it's entirety, it definitely adds some additional perspective to the CT article.
A couple of quick thoughts:
1. Why any of them agreed to do this on Larry King is beyond me. Why choose this biased secular venue to talk about important faith matters.
2. Besides, the "Adam and Steve" thing, I thought the pastor actually stated his position rather fairly, graciously, and honestly as he sees it given the fact Larry only asked him loaded, leading, and losing questions. There was no way he was going to be able to present a solid airtight case in this venue. For some reason, I was expecting them to have someone more belligerent and ridiculous like you usually see in other media things like this. But he seemed genuine enough to me.
3. I agree that Ted didn't add much of any value to the discussion and was more of a distraction than anything. He seemed more like a politician with his non-committal answers.
4. I thought it was unfair for Knapp to criticize the pastor for his blog and other public comments when she herself is the one that made this a public issue. Of course people are going to talk about it and try to work it out. For her to say "here's the news...now don't you dare talk about it" is kind of unreasonable and irrational IMO.
5. It seems to me that Knapp isn't quite convinced either way of her position, but very much wants to believe it meets with God's approval and therefore has at least studied the "pro" side of the argument a little. We also have to remember that she is a performer, not an orator practiced in the art and science of rhetoric. So we may not want to jump to too many conclusion about her stumbling over her words.
I have to lend some grace here because I know from experience what it's like to be deluded by my own desires into thinking my actions are OK and therefore giving myself permission to continue in them. I'm betting if we probe deep enough, most Christians have something they're in love with that they have post-rationalized and justified not giving up. It takes a deep work of the Holy Spirit to really flesh out and expose our internal motives to ourselves.
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Post by christopher on Apr 28, 2010 21:39:33 GMT -8
Josh wrote:
It's been my experience anyway (limited as it is)
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Post by christopher on Apr 28, 2010 21:44:33 GMT -8
Carrie wrote:
So, I'm wondering....How do you approach it with other types of sin? And how often do we really counsel those other things in the church?
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Post by Josh on Apr 29, 2010 6:32:38 GMT -8
So, after watching the Larry King thing in it's entirety, it definitely adds some additional perspective to the CT article. A couple of quick thoughts: 1. Why any of them agreed to do this on Larry King is beyond me. Why choose this biased secular venue to talk about important faith matters. 2. Besides, the "Adam and Steve" thing, I thought the pastor actually stated his position rather fairly, graciously, and honestly as he sees it given the fact Larry only asked him loaded, leading, and losing questions. There was no way he was going to be able to present a solid airtight case in this venue. For some reason, I was expecting them to have someone more belligerent and ridiculous like you usually see in other media things like this. But he seemed genuine enough to me. 3. I agree that Ted didn't add much of any value to the discussion and was more of a distraction than anything. He seemed more like a politician with his non-committal answers. 4. I thought it was unfair for Knapp to criticize the pastor for his blog and other public comments when she herself is the one that made this a public issue. Of course people are going to talk about it and try to work it out. For her to say "here's the news...now don't you dare talk about it" is kind of unreasonable and irrational IMO. 5. It seems to me that Knapp isn't quite convinced either way of her position, but very much wants to believe it meets with God's approval and therefore has at least studied the "pro" side of the argument a little. We also have to remember that she is a performer, not an orator practiced in the art and science of rhetoric. So we may not want to jump to too many conclusion about her stumbling over her words. I have to lend some grace here because I know from experience what it's like to be deluded by my own desires into thinking my actions are OK and therefore giving myself permission to continue in them. I'm betting if we probe deep enough, most Christians have something they're in love with that they have post-rationalized and justified not giving up. It takes a deep work of the Holy Spirit to really flesh out and expose our internal motives to ourselves. Very much in agreement with all your points. I don't want to come down too hard on the pastor, it's just that I don't think he's super well versed in discussing this.
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Post by sarah on Apr 29, 2010 8:28:13 GMT -8
I have to lend some grace here because I know from experience what it's like to be deluded by my own desires into thinking my actions are OK and therefore giving myself permission to continue in them. I'm betting if we probe deep enough, most Christians have something they're in love with that they have post-rationalized and justified not giving up. It takes a deep work of the Holy Spirit to really flesh out and expose our internal motives to ourselves. This has certainly been true in my life. The old addage of "we find what we look for" plays out often.
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