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Post by Kirby on Apr 19, 2010 21:11:21 GMT -8
I very much like this, Christopher. Can we still enjoy their music in spite of who they are or what they have done?
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Post by christopher on Apr 19, 2010 21:17:05 GMT -8
Hi Kirby,
I feel like maybe you're misunderstanding the nature of this thread.
It's really not about "calling out sin" or bashing Jennifer Knapp in any way. It's more about the way news like this affects those who care about and have been inspired by her music (and by extension, other inspirational figures) and how we go about dealing with that.
I'm not sure why you would consider it gossip when we're not really revealing anything that she hasn't publicly volunteered herself and she has to know that this will spark a lot of discussion among Christians. It's part of the process of wrestling and working through these things.
Just out of curiosity, do you think it's better just to ignore the issue and pretend it doesn't impact us and the Kingdom?
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Post by christopher on Apr 19, 2010 21:23:21 GMT -8
Kirby wrote: You're right, that was me. I spoke out of turn. I don't know who's divorcing whom in Randy's case so I guess I should take that part back. Sorry about that.
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Post by Kirby on Apr 19, 2010 22:12:11 GMT -8
That's kind of my point--Why is it something that needs to be wrestled with? I assume it is about the morality of homosexuality and it's role, impact, effect on Christian ministers and the church. What does that have to do with the enjoyment of music, or even the ministry of that music? I guess I am making a distinction between the artist and the art. I am fine that you are wrestling with it and discussing it, I just wanted to add my thoughts on the matter. I'm not pretending anything. The issue certainly has an impact, but where we differ, I think, is what that impact is, and its positive or negative effect. If the issue is whether we should or shouldn't enjoy Knapp's music, then it has very little, if any, impact on the Kingdom. If the issue is homosexuality, or homosexual Christians and ministers, then of course there is a large impact on the Kingdom, no matter what side of the fence we may be on regarding differing ideas of morality. If the issue is how we react to sin and sinners, then it certainly has an impact, because it has caused me to think, and hopefully you and Josh to think, and we all have benefitted.
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Post by michelle on Apr 20, 2010 9:16:28 GMT -8
Does Jennifer Knapp read this board? Is someone who posts here close to her? Does this discussion help Ms. Knapp in her personal relationships, both with others or with God? Does her proclamation of her homosexual behaviors open a door for people to discuss that in a loving way so that others, who are perhaps struggling with the same sin, can be ministered to through a discussion? Do you "call out sin", or "grieve for those who sin" about the people within your community in a public forum like this? I've never seen it in the several months I've been lurking around. Do you speak about your own sin in such a manner, at least publicly like this? I don't, and don't plan on it, so why would I about someone elses? Actually, a few weeks ago someone wrote about their struggle with a particular sin and several people were able to minister to that person. I have no idea where the link is, but it was great to watch the body come together. What bothered me was that people were asking if you would still use her music (and maybe even an implied question of whether or not it was still OK to enjoy her music), and that just does not make sense to me. Why wouldn't anyone who enjoyed her music when everyone thought she was straight not enjoy it now that she has come out of the closet? The art isn't gay, the artist is. You replied that the "spot on" songs were still OK. I assume that means there were some songs that were not "spot on". Are you saying none of her songs in the future will be worthy of worship, because she is gay? Before I say what I am about to say, I will admit here that I'm feeling a little defensive for my friends. One person asked if we would still use her music. Everyone that has responded has said that yes, we should still use her music for worship. But I feel like you are saying that we are making a big deal about whether or not we should still use her music for worship. I don't think it is that much of a question. We sing songs from non-Christians, so in my mind (and it appears that others have agreed) that it's a non-issue. The way I have read [most] people's posts is that the question of whether or not we should use her music is rhetorical and is to generate discussion. The reality is that JK was in a position of ministry (as we all are because as followers of Christ we are all ministers of the Gospel), official or not. And it's sad when someone in a ministry stops fighting sin. It's sad when people stumble or walk away from Christ. It is always sad and should always be sad because it hurts God. And it hurts the Kingdom of God when people that are public figures tell the world you can walk in sin and walk with God.
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Post by Kirby on Apr 20, 2010 10:15:50 GMT -8
First off, let me say i am sorry if I have offended anyone. I in no way meant to attack any point of view, but rather I wanted to enter the discussion.
I am simply joining that discussion with a different view. I guess we are all in agreement that it is a non-issue, so I should let it rest. But, if this is a non-issue, why was the question even raised?
I thought I made this clear, but here it is in plain terms: I do not think Knapp is sinning. I do not think she is walking away from Christ, but rather embracing how she was created and walking toward acceptance for those that accept her. She is being honest. That is why I do not understand why it is even being discussed at all. I understand that some may view it as sin, but I do not. I also understand that I may be in the minority on this board that feel that way.
Michelle, I am sorry if I made you feel defensive. My intent was not to make anyone feel like they needed to defend. I just see so much homophobia in the world that hurts my gay friends, so I got a little defensive for them as well, so I know how you are feeling.
I don't believe in the "agree to disagree" thing, but it is OK with me if anyone disagrees with me. My feelings are not hurt. So I will let this issue rest, and we can get back to discussing music on this music thread, and hopefully save the discussions about morality, proper behavior of church leaders, and the like to the other appropriate threads. Sorry I hijacked this one.
BTW, did anyone read the article I linked to? I think it applies here.
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Post by michelle on Apr 20, 2010 11:23:05 GMT -8
First off, let me say i am sorry if I have offended anyone. I in no way meant to attack any point of view, but rather I wanted to enter the discussion. I am simply joining that discussion with a different view. I guess we are all in agreement that it is a non-issue, so I should let it rest. But, if this is a non-issue, why was the question even raised? I thought I made this clear, but here it is in plain terms: I do not think Knapp is sinning. I do not think she is walking away from Christ, but rather embracing how she was created and walking toward acceptance for those that accept her. She is being honest. That is why I do not understand why it is even being discussed at all. I understand that some may view it as sin, but I do not. I also understand that I may be in the minority on this board that feel that way. Michelle, I am sorry if I made you feel defensive. My intent was not to make anyone feel like they needed to defend. I just see so much homophobia in the world that hurts my gay friends, so I got a little defensive for them as well, so I know how you are feeling. I don't believe in the "agree to disagree" thing, but it is OK with me if anyone disagrees with me. My feelings are not hurt. So I will let this issue rest, and we can get back to discussing music on this music thread, and hopefully save the discussions about morality, proper behavior of church leaders, and the like to the other appropriate threads. Sorry I hijacked this one. BTW, did anyone read the article I linked to? I think it applies here. I was not offended, it just seemed to me like people's points weren't being understood and that the statements they made were being overlooked. You did not make me feel defensive because nobody can make me feel anything. I probably should have kept quiet and let people clarify their positions themselves, but sometimes my sense of loyalty gets the best of me. Like I said, I felt like people's points were not being understood. I understand you feeling defensive for your friends. Can you please clarify what you mean by homophobia? When I hear that word I think about the hatred of LBGTQQ people and violence or prejudice against that group. I hope you do not think that is who we are as a community. I think that was my biggest concern is I did not want us to be painted as hating JK or thinking that we can no longer listen to her music because she has "come out". So to wrap things up, it sounds like the issue here is whether homosexuality is a sin, which is covered on a different thread somewhere.
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Post by Josh on Apr 20, 2010 11:41:47 GMT -8
Not to stir up waters that seem to be settling down, but I have to say that upon reflection I actually don't think it is either easy nor necessarily desirable to separate an artist from their art. The more I think about that, the more artificial it seems. Also, I think it's impossible for me because when I listen to an artist, I am doing just that- listening to an artist, not just listening to a song. Some people seem to be able to just listen to a song; I very rarely ever do that. I'm always trying to see the world from the artist's point of view, always wanting to know more about their story, always caring about their story. It doesn't matter if it's Jennifer Knapp, Jim Morrison, or David Bowie.
I think it's the historian in me.
Please don't misunderstand and think I'm saying that I can't accept the truth and beauty coming from anyone who I disagree with. But what I'm saying I can't do easily is accept it dispassionately.
Homosexuality is only distantly related to what I think is my personal central focus on this thread- which is indeed the question of the relationship between art and artist and how and if an artist's life should affect us as the appreciator of the artist.
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Post by Josh on Apr 20, 2010 11:50:04 GMT -8
chris wrote:
Your clarification has made me more confused.
What's the qualitative difference between Paul and Jennifer before this decision of hers? It's like you're saying I shouldn't have desired to imitate her simply because she was famous, but that's not what caused me to be inspired by her in the first place. It was her walk with God that caused me to "hold her up" as an example.
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Post by Kirby on Apr 20, 2010 12:23:58 GMT -8
Hatred is certainly the extreme extension of homophobia. When I refer to homophobia, I include intolerance and unacceptance of homosexuals, simply because they are homosexual. I understand "tolerance" and "acceptance" are broad terms, and could have different meanings depending on your world view. It seems sometimes, especially in the Christian Culture, that homosexuality is more demonized than other sin, as if an extramarital heterosexual affair is more forgiveable than a homosexual one. To me, this smells of homophobia. It is viewed as a deviant sin rather than just a sin...there is something wrong with that, I think. Not at all, in fact I have always liked that those I have met and discussed things with are very open and loving. However, when I measure my views against yours when it comes to the morality of homosexuality, I'll admit it looks homophobic. That's not a judgment of your community, but rather something for your community to think about, from the perspective of an outsider. You rabblerouser. I guess you are right, to an extent. The art is an extension of the artist, but unless that art is describing or depicting what they are doing with a partner in the bedroom, I don't see what their sexuality has to do with it. Thank you all for letting me vent, discuss, and participate in your community in this way...last offer on the link... any opinions? www.utne.com/Spirituality/Coming-Home-Gay-Christian.aspx
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Post by Josh on Apr 20, 2010 15:43:07 GMT -8
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Post by christopher on Apr 20, 2010 19:01:35 GMT -8
Wow! you guys have been busy. Looks like I got a lot of catching up to do.
Kirby, I began reading the article you posted, but it was like 6 pages long and I simply ran out of time. I'll try to go back to it and comment on it.
Josh, if it was Knapps walk (and not music) that inspired you, then you are right to see her in that light....for you. But I'd also say that I think it creates an even bigger problem for you since you don't really know her and therefore can't really know her walk.
More to answer, but it'll have to be later....time to get the kids to bed.
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Post by Josh on Apr 20, 2010 19:07:27 GMT -8
Granted I didn't know her personally. But I don't think one need know someone personally to be inspired by their walk or to desire to imitate them. I'm inspired by Paul and I don't know him
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Post by christopher on Apr 20, 2010 21:08:55 GMT -8
Yes, but Paul would be the first to say "imitate me as I imitate Christ". He certainly wouldn't say "imitate me in all that I do", because he was a sinner too.
You receive Paul's gifts well enough don't you? Do you think Knapp is willfully walking in disobedience, or do you think she believes she is walking in the light? My impression from her words was the latter. I disagree with her, but I'm not in a position to judge her motives.
Interestingly, Jesus told his disciples to receive the things from God even from those who He knew were hypocrites:
Matt 23:1-3 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. NKJV
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Post by christopher on Apr 20, 2010 21:18:21 GMT -8
Hi Kirby,
you wrote:
Because in the eyes of some, a music minister (i.e. any Christian musician that ministers through their music) is similar to a leader in the church and should therefore be subject to the same qualifications of such. I don't take that position, but I understand why people would, and insofar as they understand it that way, I can't find fault with them wrestling with it.
As far as I can tell, Knapp neither desires nor sees herself as a leader in the church. But, as a celebrity, it would be hard to deny that she has a large influence on the youth of the church. Wouldn't you agree that is a Kingdom impact?
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Post by Josh on Apr 21, 2010 18:38:15 GMT -8
Of course imitation always carries the caveat of "as I imitate Christ". But why didn't Paul just tell them to imitate Christ and leave out the middleman? Because sometimes we need to see it acted out in front of us.
I don't really understand how the second paragraph you wrote is related- and I don't really understand the question. What "gifts" are you referring to?
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Post by christopher on Apr 22, 2010 19:20:36 GMT -8
So you're wanting an argument from ignorance? I don't know why he said it the way he did. Maybe it is I who am misunderstanding the nature of the thread. My assumption was that Knapps' news is hindering you from receiving inspiration from her songs anymore. Am I wrong? My point was that Jesus told His disciples to receive inspiration from the Pharisees in spite of their lives not reflecting what they preach.
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