Jennifer Knapp

[christopher]

So Josh, Will Aletheia continue to use her music in worship?

My next question was going to be along these lines as well.

I also wanted to know how this affects the appreciation of her music for those who are fans of it.

The real driving question for me is how much are we supposed to distinguish between people and their gifts/talents? Should we really make musicians and other famous figures "heroes of the faith" just because they write spiritually edifying music or have some other gift when we really don't much about who they are?

This reminds me a lot of the story of Lonnie Frisbee. The guy could hardly open his mouth without someone coming to the Lord, but he had the same struggle in his personal life. Jennifer Knapp's music has no doubt been a great inspiration for many Christians and I'm sure many kingdom advancements have spilled out of it. But where there is great potential, there is also great risk. I wonder how many of Knapp's fans will alter their view of homosexuality based solely on her words alone (and the fact that they don't want to lose their favorite musical inspiration).

[b]

That last line made me think.

Can a person be a musical inspiration (who writes songs of Biblical truth and shares them with the world) and not be a personal inspiration (who inspires the world with their personal choices and conduct)?

This issue obviously comes up whenever a Christian preacher/teacher/speaker/leader/musician has their moral failures exposed. Should Christians throw out everything that they learned from that person?

I think that we can (in most situations) separate what a person has inspired us to and pointed us toward, from their flawed, human status.

I think that we can continue to enjoy the Jennifer Knapp songs that we find to be "spot on" (as Josh put it) regardless of her current lifestyle.

[Josh]

Can a person be a musical inspiration (who writes songs of Biblical truth and shares them with the world) and not be a personal inspiration (who inspires the world with their personal choices and conduct)?

I guess we could say that this is an apt description of Solomon or even David, right?

On another note:

Interestingly, and this is a very vulnerable admission for me, so please treat me tenderly, I actually tend to grow frustrated or even angry with God when a brother or sister falls. I mean obviously I believe in free will, but I just think of verses like:

Philippians 1:6

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

and I think, how can we have that confidence when I've seen so many cases to the contrary? And furthermore, and more importantly, why does God's intervention seem too weak so often?

[christopher]

I know how much music inspires you, and there's nothing wrong with that.

The only way I could ever make sense of the verse you quoted is to see it corporately rather than individually. Otherwise, Paul obviously misses the mark by a long shot since he elsewhere talks about some who began well and stumbled hard (like the Galatians for example). So the work God began in the church (you Philippians), He will certainly finish.

I'm in agreement about separating people from their gifts, and I think it's wise to do so before they stumble. Spiritual heroes of the faith are generally safer when their dead and have already "run the race", "fought the good fight". They can no longer devastate us when they stumble. People like George Mueller are good heroes to have.

Ms. Knapp has apparently put the fight on hold. It's ok, we all do from time to time. But it's important that we don't see it as the end of the story. It's only the middle of a chapter for her.

I wonder if God sometimes sends these curve balls our way to draw our focus back to the One who gave the gifts rather than the one they were given through.

I think it's not only OK to continue to appreciate the "spot on" work that Knapp has produced, but it would be a flat out rejection of God's gifts not to do so if it has inspired you.

I would like to put in my request for "Trinity" in the worship set next Sunday.

[christopher]

BTW Brian, why does your bible have 34 chapters in Proverbs? Are we going to have to hold an inquisition? ;D

[Josh]

I'm in agreement about separating people from their gifts, and I think it's wise to do so before they stumble. Spiritual heroes of the faith are generally safer when their dead and have already "run the race", "fought the good fight". They can no longer devastate us when they stumble. People like George Mueller are good heroes to have.

I need a clarification here. One could interpret this to mean that we shouldn't be upset when we hear news of a brother or sister falling. Am I correct in assuming that's not a correlated inference?

[michelle]

Interestingly, and this is a very vulnerable admission for me, so please treat me tenderly, I actually tend to grow frustrated or even angry with God when a brother or sister falls. I mean obviously I believe in free will, but I just think of verses like:

Philippians 1:6

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

and I think, how can we have that confidence when I've seen so many cases to the contrary? And furthermore, and more importantly, why does God's intervention seem too weak so often?

Thank you, Josh, for being vulnerable. I hope I'm gentle enough.

Actually, I was talking with Jacqui a couple weeks ago about anger and how it is a reaction to a feeling we have. I imagine this anger is tied to disappointment and hurt related to a brother or sister falling. I think it's good that you have hurt and disappointment related to someone falling. It shows that you are invested in the lives of those in God's Kingdom.

I guess I see the term "falling away" as not being the most accurate description. I think we should call it "walking away". Falling implies that we slipped and nothing will catch us. It's like an accident happened, but that's not really how it goes. It is a long, slow, slippery slide into darkness. It is many decisions to turn our backs to the Lord.

Josh, you know my story over the past few years as well as anybody. Remember where I was about 4 years ago? I turned my back on everything. I didn't want to listen to what was right and wrong. But God did not turn His back on me. He used His children to minister to me and pray for me and I came back. And while I know I broke God's heart and hurt people I care very much about, I honestly cannot imagine where I would be had I not walked through that part of my journey. It showed me God and His love on a deeper level than I thought possible. God has redeemed my mistakes for His glory.

It is hard to watch people walk away from God. Some people come back and some don't. And I can see that it would be frustrating when it appears God's intervention is not enough. I remember you saying to me shortly after I came back that sometimes one has to be a prodigal child to truly know God's love. You are right. Unfortunately, some people can't truly understand grace without going without it for some time. And it's especially hard to watch from the outside.

I agree with Chris that we can't see this as the end. It's only part of the story. If someone walked away from the Lord and that was the end, there are at least a couple of Aletheia-ites that wouldn't be here today.

Praise Jesus that there is always hope for redemption in any situation!

[sarah]

I'm here, I'm here!

[christopher]

Josh wrote:

I need a clarification here. One could interpret this to mean that we shouldn't be upset when we hear news of a brother or sister falling. Am I correct in assuming that's not a correlated inference?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I think we should be grieved to our soul at not only someone falling, but even at what might seem to be the smallest of sin, which is not only an offense to God but a dehumanization of individual.

What I'm saying is, be upset...don't be "devastated". I'm also saying that I don't think it is wrong to continue to appreciate and celebrate spiritual blessings (i.e. enjoy and be inspired by their music, art, teaching, etc) from someone who has fallen into sin. After all, those gifts are not from them, they're from the Holy Spirit and should be received as such.

Of course I wouldn't hold the individual up as a shining Christian example whose life is to be emulated, but why shouldn't we receive blessings from the Lonnie Frisbees, Larry Normans, Jennifer Knapps (and now apparently, the Randy Stonehills) of the world? God has worked through these bruised reeds to show His power, not theirs.


Michelle wrote:

I guess I see the term "falling away" as not being the most accurate description. I think we should call it "walking away".

I didn't read anything in that article convinces me that Knapp has done either. It doesn't appear to me that she has walked away from the faith or from God or loves Jesus any less. I like the term "stumble" for that reason. It appears to me that she is misguided and has simply bought into the theological spin of the camp that says expressions of homosexuality are not necessarily sinful in God's eyes. This has given her the perceived freedom her to embrace what she so wants to be true and even find joy in it. In my mind, it's not freedom at all, but bondage to a lie. But that's for her and God and her community to sort out.

Like many other gifted individuals that acquire fame, she lacks genuine solid discipleship and a true vision of what it means to be a follower of Christ (IMO).

I think our appropriate reaction is to continue to pray for her (as Carrie suggested) and continue to be thankful for the gifts God has given the body of Christ through her. I'm not personally a fan of Knapp because I'm not all that familiar with her, but I love the fact that she's inspired so many and I hope that is not all in vain because of this.

[Josh]

Of course I wouldn't hold the individual up as a shining Christian example whose life is to be emulated, but why shouldn't we receive blessings from the Lonnie Frisbees, Larry Normans, Jennifer Knapps (and now apparently, the Randy Stonehills) of the world? God has worked through these bruised reeds to show His power, not theirs.

Just curious how you reconcile this with 1 Cor. 11:1, where Paul says “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:1).

But that's for her and God and her community to sort out.

I'm not surprised, according to the article, that she isn't in a church community right now.

[Kirby]

Lots of splinters being pointed out here. I generally can't see them, or i don't pay attention to them due to the beams in my eyes.

[Josh]

Apr 19, 2010 16:32:41 GMT -8 Kirby said:

Lots of splinters being pointed out here. I generally can't see them, or i don't pay attention to them due to the beams in my eyes.

This sounds to me like a misunderstanding of the New Testament's teaching about making "judgments". Do you really think the New Testament teaches we shouldn't address sin in each other's lives? In fact, the very passage you're referring to, implies that we should help take the speck out of our brother or sister's eyes.

Matthew 7:1-5

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

The New Testament tells us not to judge hypocritically (passage above), acknowledging with humility the potency of our own sin when we speak of others sin. However, it does also exhort us to call sin out for what it is (Titus 2:15, 1 Tim. 5:20) , to make judgments about sin in the family of God (1 Cor. 5:3,12) , help restore others (Gal. 6:1), and grieve for those who sin (2 Cor. 2:5, 2 Cor. 12:21).

[Kirby]

I see what your saying, Josh, but I guess I should clarify.

Does Jennifer Knapp read this board? Is someone who posts here close to her? Does this discussion help Ms. Knapp in her personal relationships, both with others or with God?

I was refraining from posting, until other Christian "celebrities" were also shared. At times, it almost seemed like spreading of gossip (which I am guilty of doing all the time). I mean, really, what diference does it make if an artist is gay? I am not trying to spark a debate about the morality of sexuality. I am simply saying that it should make no difference at all. What if her next album contained songs that were even more "spot on" as you put it? Further, don't you feel ALL of your worship songs are "spot on", at least theologically? So why is it even an issue? So Randy Stonehill got a divorce...who cares? Unless you are in a position "help restore" him, all you are doing is "calling out sin for what it is", "making judgements about sin in the family of God", and in that you are probably preaching to the choir in this case.

Do you "call out sin", or "grieve for those who sin" about the people within your community in a public forum like this? I've never seen it in the several months I've been lurking around. Do you speak about your own sin in such a manner, at least publicly like this? I don't, and don't plan on it, so why would I about someone elses?

Are you justifying celebrity gossip through using the references above?

I guess I just don't get why it is so disappointing to you that the Christian artists you enjoy are also human, and/or have differing theology than yours, even if it is incompatible to yours.

Somewhat related to this is the following article, in which I would love to hear your opinion on:

www.utne.com/Spirituality/Coming-Home-Gay-Christian.aspx

Also, I can't find the article online, but this issue of Utne reader also includes a fascinating essay by a lesbian who challenges the "nature" argument of homosexuality, and suggests it is indeed a choice. I'll link to it if i find it.

I really do appreciate this discussion. I am sorry if I was being judgmental myself.

[Josh]

This reminds me of our discussion on the thread entitled "Lampooning Christian Political Figures" www.aletheia.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ironsharpens&action=display&thread=2553

were you wrote:

Famous Christians, whether they be political leaders, or other forms of celebrity, are usually not accessible to practice face to face exhortations. I would love to confront Bob Jones (who not only is a racist but also a plagarist) but I don't have anyway of contacting him directly, and he probably wouldn't have time to talk to me anywa

"Celebrity status" of course clouds things. But here's how I see it: Jennifer's statements were public, so the response is going to be as well.

So Randy Stonehill got a divorce...who cares?

I do, and this is a forum where I'm sharing my concerns and sorrows with my friends. Isn't that enough?

As to Randy, I didn't make any judgment other than that I am very upset to hear the news about another one of my favorite musicians.

[Josh]

I guess I just don't get why it is so disappointing to you that the Christian artists you enjoy are also human,

I'm not upset that Jennifer is human. As I said before, we all stumble in many ways. What I'm upset about is that she's embracing her sin instead of fighting it.

Why do you think Paul was so disappointed by similar situations among the people he was writing to, even with his theology of grace? Paul regularly used words like "grieved" or "in vain" or "sorrow" to describe his feelings about others sin.

and/or have differing theology than yours, even if it is incompatible to yours.

Why is it disappointing to me that others hold to different theology than me?

Well, some theology is of the utmost importance. Just like it's disappointing to me to see someone deny the redemptive power of Jesus, it's disappointing to me to see someone calling sin something else.

1 Timothy 4:16

Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

[christopher]

Of course I wouldn't hold the individual up as a shining Christian example whose life is to be emulated, but why shouldn't we receive blessings from the Lonnie Frisbees, Larry Normans, Jennifer Knapps (and now apparently, the Randy Stonehills) of the world? God has worked through these bruised reeds to show His power, not theirs.

Just curious how you reconcile this with 1 Cor. 11:1, where Paul says “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:1).

I'm not sure what you think there is to reconcile.

Perhaps you think I meant that we shouldn't hold any individual up as an example to emulate? If so, let me clarify. What I mean by that is that we shouldn't hold up Lonnie, Larry, Jennifer, and other gifted and/or famous Christians as ones to imitate, but I think we can affirm the truths they inspire. Jesus said something similar in Matt 23:1-3.

I firmly believe in pointing out individuals to imitate as Paul and John also wrote about.

I'm not surprised, according to the article, that she isn't in a church community right now.

It's been a couple of days since I read the article, but my understanding was that she did have a circle of Christian friends, she's just not going to a "church" meeting. I would consider that circle of friends her church community.

[Kirby]

Quote:Famous Christians, whether they be political leaders, or other forms of celebrity, are usually not accessible to practice face to face exhortations. I would love to confront Bob Jones (who not only is a racist but also a plagarist) but I don't have anyway of contacting him directly, and he probably wouldn't have time to talk to me anywa



"Celebrity status" of course clouds things. But here's how I see it: Jennifer's statements were public, so the response is going to be as well.

I stand by both my statements, but I do not believe homosexuality to be troubling to me, which is where you and I differ. Your opinion was obvious, and that didn't bother me. What bothered me was that people were asking if you would still use her music (and maybe even an implied question of whether or not it was still OK to enjoy her music), and that just does not make sense to me. Why wouldn't anyone who enjoyed her music when everyone thought she was straight not enjoy it now that she has come out of the closet? The art isn't gay, the artist is. You replied that the "spot on" songs were still OK. I assume that means there were some songs that were not "spot on". Are you saying none of her songs in the future will be worthy of worship, because she is gay?

I do, and this is a forum where I'm sharing my concerns and sorrows with my friends. Isn't that enough?

My "who cares" was more in reference to the enjoyment of his music (this being a music thread and all Does it really matter to you whether or not a musician is divorced or gay in order to enjoy their music?

I understand that you are sharing your sorrows and concerns with your friends. I can see being concerned and sad about Pat Robertson blaming the earthquake in Haiti on the actions of the Hatians. I don't get how you are concerned or sorrowful that Jennifer Knapp prefers to sleep with women instead of men. In my view, it does not prevent her from loving God and her neighbors. Bob Jones cannot fully love his neighbors as a racist-this is concerning, and sorrowful that he has to dishonestly use other's intellectual property as his own.

I realize you did not make any judgemental statements about Randy, I guess Christopher lumped him together with Knapp, Norman, and Frisbee.

Jennifer's statements were public, so the response is going to be as well.

Makes sense, if this was just about her sexuality (the sin, as you see it), but it is really about your continued enjoyment of her music now that she has openly declared her lesbianism, is it not?