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Post by carebear on Nov 24, 2011 23:29:15 GMT -8
Didn't God speak through a donkey in Numbers  |
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Post by freebirdro on Nov 25, 2011 13:56:28 GMT -8
He is messing with some religious spirits, not primary doctrines. Y, :-Xes he is dangerous watch out.
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Post by Josh on Nov 27, 2011 15:51:01 GMT -8
He is messing with some religious spirits, not primary doctrines. Y, :-Xes he is dangerous watch out. I dunno- I think it's a pretty primary doctrine he's messing with. He must think it's pretty big too because he calls the belief that Christians still battle their old sin nature a heresy! (page 24) I guess that makes me a heretic  Kind of a quick call everyone else a heretic before they label you one?  I'm several chapters into the book so far. I'll be back with some more thoughts soon. |
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Post by christopher on Nov 27, 2011 18:23:24 GMT -8
I really don't know much about Crowder (not really my kind of preacher to be honest), but just from what I've heard him say so far, it sounds like he may be hyper-dispensational? If so, I'd consider that a different gospel since they pretty much teach that Jesus' words are to the old covenant Jews and not to be obeyed in the new covenant. Also, that you can't lose your "salvation" so confessing your sins is an insult to God and a mockery of the cross.
That's not the gospel Jesus or the apostles taught.
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Post by Josh on Nov 27, 2011 21:10:55 GMT -8
Ok, some thoughts on the reading.
But before I get into this, I want you to know that I really am trying to keep an open mind for any bits of truth I might glean. That said, I'm encountering a lot of what I just really think is bad theology. I don't want to offend you but I also want to be honest with my thoughts on this.
....
Though Crowder insists that our old self/nature has completely died, he does at times admit that it might still be possible to sin, as here:
"Even if you have commited a gross sin, it is acknowledging Christ's mercy toward you that picks you up and moves you forward. Not beating yourself up and trying to change yourself". (Page 33)
I'm mostly in agreement with this phrase, although I suspect that I would disagree with him on what he considers "trying to change yourself". In the battle against sin, we must be wise and learn discipline from Christ, which Crowder seems to staunchly disavow.
Elsewhere (around pages 34-35) I like how he emphasizes faith over feeling/ faith over experiences. That's a healthy corrective to certain religious movements.
On page 38, I have to say I disagree with his assessment that 1 John 1:8 is talking only about past sin, just as 1 John 1:10 seems to be. But that would be a good discussion for it's own thread I think.
Anyway, on to Crowder's treatment of sin in the life of a believer. He says there are two options: either a) the person with sin isn't really a believer or b) the person hasn't been taught Crowder's version of the gospel. He seems to believe that a mere change of mental perspective can eradicate the sin in a believer's life.
But even if this was the case, I still don't see how it's possible to not see this supposed skewed mental perspective as indicative of sin (and a surviving sin nature) itself. If ALL we are now is the NEW CREATION then where are these doubts and lack of faith coming from? Certainly not the perfect New Creation God has begun in us! So they must be coming from somewhere else that can still in some sense be called "us".
He says the Christian life is NOT a struggle against sin, but then he enjoins people to struggle against the false conception of the sin nature!!!
At this point I want to ask what battle Paul was describing in the Corinthian church (addressed to believers), but the battle of pretensions of the mind that are disobedient to Christ?
2 Corinthians 10
1 By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you--I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away! 2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.
Such pretensions are disobedience. And disobedience is sin! And so Crowder's argument comes undone, because if there is something in us that holds us back from acting like the New Creation, then that is sin! Call it a sin nature or not, there is something about us that is not perfected- something that tries to fight against the New Creation that God is birthing in us- something that refuses to stay completely dead during this life of ours.
Elsewhere in the book, Crowder seems to minimalize sins of believers by describing them in some instances as mere "lapses of judgment" (page 51). I don't like that because sin is sin. I get the feeling that Crowder would be very uncomfortable with believers confessing their sins to one another, yet that is exactly what the New Testament tells us we are to do (James 5:16). Perhaps later in the book he'll address James 5?
The next part I"m going to be reading is about "the Myth of the Flesh". I'll report back later.
But for now, one more thought:
I see Crowder as a reacting against Christian theology not recognizing the power and importance of passages such as
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
But in his efforts to elevate something that has often been ignored, he blunders into the opposite error that there is no struggle against sin left in the life of the believer.
He then has to shoehorn a huge multitude of passages in the New Testament which assume a battle with sin into his narrow understanding of what Paul means by "new creation".
It would be much better if Crowder would be more forthright in acknowledging sin in Christians lives and what they are to do when it occurs, while taking a strong stand that the primary way for Christians to battle sin is walking in the Spirit, which is, ignoring the ghost of the Old Man and believing in faith that we have now been transferred into the kingdom of God and are a new creation. In our new creation, it's true, we cannot sin. But we have to "put on the new creation" every day.
Paul's whole theology on this could not be better stated in one place than in Ephesians 4:22-31 (which I think I mentioned early on on this thread but no one responded to):
Ephesians 4:22
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
This part is past-tense. This is talking about the putting off of the old self that happened at the moment someone becomes a believer.
But notice how the next part goes to the present tense, the need for these Ephesian believers to continue to put off the old and put on the new self:
25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 "In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need. 29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.
Notice how this section if full of sins that still might occur in the life of believer (sins I might add that would displease the Holy Spirit!)? These are certainly sins that you or I are still succeptible to, and from time to time need to confess to one another.
In our struggle against them, we need to take Paul's advice and consider ourselves a New Creation and start acting on that truth, rather than lingering in the shoddy world of the old ghost of the flesh, decisively defeated on the cross.
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Post by freebirdro on Nov 27, 2011 22:18:11 GMT -8
Chris, I don't know who this guy is but he has something funny to say about that.
I do not agree with him, but just trying to make a point. I usually don't go into details with subjects or topics that are not essential in terms of salvation.
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Post by freebirdro on Nov 27, 2011 22:37:05 GMT -8
I don't know how important it is to know mentally that our sinful nature is dead. But it does say very clear in Romans that our sinful nature was crucified and done with. I think this may be important because it puts the focus on the what Christ did not on what we do. We can't kill our sinful nature. Can you? We can discipline our selves in our efforts to change our old minds through His presence, not our techniques.
The sins we are still committing and need to be confess to each other are happening while we learn to live as a new creation. His main ministry actually is not to convince people that their sinful nature is dead (although that is part of it)....it is to teach people how to live as a new creation. He believes that we need to experience and learn how to live in the Spirit, or practice the presence of God , or to continually be filled with the Spirit, how he puts it.
I think the reason he is so vehement about the sinful nature being dead is because he believes that God cannot live in the same vessel with a sinful nature. Now our old mind that needs to be renewed is something different. It is something that can be restored through continuing to be filled with the Spirit as instructed. Nobody says that discipline is not good , is just when discipline alone becomes a replacement of the presence of God .
It seems to me that this kind of complex sanctification process you are advocating for is leaving outside many so called simple people that are not smart enough to figure out how to fight the complexity of their lives. He is advocating for the simple gospel, Christ on the cross and resurrected making us new, and Holy Spirit in us renewing our minds by pouring His love in our hearts.
Now that I can understand.
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Post by carebear on Nov 27, 2011 22:50:55 GMT -8
That sounds so good to me. Thank you God for your simple gospel God.
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Post by freebirdro on Nov 28, 2011 0:07:07 GMT -8
Chris. I think Crowder's view on hell, --- a place without the presence of God.-- We can use our imagination on what may that be like.
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Post by christopher on Nov 28, 2011 10:05:02 GMT -8
Freebirdro wrote: I'm afraid I don't get the point you were trying to make with the video. I'm sure the guy who made it feels very clever (as he cavalierly dismisses the complex nuances of theology and paints all Christians as dim-witted simpletons), but I guess I'm not clear on how you are tying that to this discussion. I also don't understand what you were trying to say about hell either.  That's just it. Paul says in the opening lines of Galatians* that if you are preaching a different gospel it IS a salvation issue. The reason I put "salvation" in quotes earlier is because of the mistaken tendency of Christians to see it as an irrevocable transaction (like a get out of jail free card). From a scriptural standpoint, "salvation" is not heavenly payment for "accepting" Christ, it is a benefit from being in right relationship with God and having His eternal life in us (i.e. being on the vine...John 15). It's not something we possess, only God possesses it (Paul says to Timothy*). I believe the hyper-dispensational theology eliminates the need to maintain our relationship with God and can easily lead to anti-nomian (license to sin) bondage and a departure from the faith among other things. Even in the New covenant, we are told to have a healthy fear of being cut off from that life giving (eternal life that is) sap of the vine. Do I need to list the scriptures that support this idea?* Yes, we are part of a glorious "new creation" in Christ, and adopted as sons of God, but we are still told to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling*" are we not? Where does that idea come from? I'm all for a "simple gospel", as far as understanding goes. But certainly you must acknowledge that following Jesus still requires obedience to Him (which can be anything but simple), sometimes obedience even unto death. Wouldn't you agree? *Sorry for the lack of scripture refs, I'm on my break and short on time  |
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Post by Josh on Nov 28, 2011 20:12:03 GMT -8
What matters more than whether we see sanctification as simple or complex is that we see sanctification as the Bible describes it. But ultimately, I think Crowder's version is more confusing and therefore more confusing and bound to frustrate. Imagine the confusion/ frustration of someone who comes to Christ under Crowder's model and then finds that they still sin and their only options are 1) I might not really be saved or 2) I'm not "thinking" about this correctly. They are going to spend a lot of time either worrying or reading his books it seems to me. At the end of the day, the process of sanctification is going to involve "fear and trembling" while at the same time we discover that that we can trade the heavy yoke for Jesus' light yoke. It will be, paradoxically, the easiest and the hardest process we will ever go through, the freest and most costly experience we ever have. |
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Post by Josh on Nov 28, 2011 20:30:46 GMT -8
I have to return to Colossians 3 which I brought up on the first page but never got a response on.
It's just so clear about the paradox of us having died with Christ and needing to continue to die with Christ.
Colossians 3
1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Here it is treated as a real possibility that we, though we are in one sense new creations in Christ, might still set our minds on earthly things- and we might also wrong our brothers and be in need of their ongoing forgiveness. And again in verse 5 Christians (those who have already become new creations) are told to "put to death whatever [still] belongs to our old sinful nature". We are to "put the old things to death" in the present tense., actively, ongoing. Notice it also says we are "being renewed" here, not simply "we have been renewed"
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Post by freebirdro on Nov 29, 2011 21:39:20 GMT -8
Yes,
Josh we need to renew our minds, and we have to put to death old patterns of thinking that are not in line with our identity trough new patterns of thinking according to the Spirit. He did made us a new creation that in His possession is able to do those things. Col 3, I think the passage is actually supporting the death of our sinful nature.
I don't believe we fell when when ate from the tree. The tree was good. This tell us that even good things, when trusted in to produce godliness and right standing with God, can become idols of self-works.
We fell when we put our trust in something good (tree of knowledge, law, deeds, cleansing, etc) other than God,---- to make us in the likeness of God (even though we were in his likeness already but didn't trust in it). And Now through Christ we are in His likeness AGAIN. And this is what we have to believe, this is what we need to agree with. This is the good news. This is why the cross is so important.
See, the serpent said we will be in God's likeness if we eat from the tree, he knew what we wanted, he just tricked us into the wrong source. That's why Jesus was so against Pharisees, they were putting their trust in something good but not in God.
Anything other than a child like faith is meaningless...and displeasing, because it is done with implied self worth and thus nullifying or partially nullifying the work Of Christ. A GIFT that cannot be paid for.....the one that can accept such a crazy Gift.....without having to give anything in return....can enjoy the Gift.
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Post by freebirdro on Nov 29, 2011 21:50:56 GMT -8
Josh when you say that we need to look at the bible and how sanctification is described , do you mean through your interpretation of the bible?
Look, I was a little upset that Crowder made that statement with 1) I might not really be saved or 2) I'm not "thinking" about this correctly.
What I think he was trying to say was that if we are still ''sinning'' we may have a thinking error; we may be operating in our old habitual mind but not sinning as an identity.
I don't think he needed to write that to make his point.
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Post by freebirdro on Nov 29, 2011 21:51:56 GMT -8
Chris , i would like to answer but you are too complex man, simple up! Lol
Honestly I don't understand some of your questions. Lets talk about them when we meet. That way I don't have to pull my dictionary.
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Post by freebirdro on Nov 29, 2011 22:07:00 GMT -8
And Josh, when I get more time I will try to wrestle same more verses with you...But Most of the ones you mention are actually proving Crowder's point . I think he is explaining many of them in those two books I gave u...
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Post by carebear on Nov 29, 2011 23:13:29 GMT -8
Chris wrote:
I would say obeying Him is easy and simple when we are drunk on Him. 'Even unto death' would be something He is sustaining me in with His glorious presence and even that wouldn't be a 'weight' for me if I carry His yoke and not mine. I say this to glorify Him, not me.
In no way whatsoever is the simple gospel of Christ (dying for us and making us new) causing us to want to sin. What Crowder emphasizes (as well as many others) is that realizing and tasting this deep love and affection for us.....understanding this love through His Holy Spirit and accepting His sacrifice as done, we ONLY want to live for Him. We only want to please Him. Only those who are walking away from Him or not understanding the gospel would knowingly walk into sin and stay there. Jesus didn't come to show us how not to sin. He came to break sin's power over us.
In regards to "fear and trembling", that phrase in other translations points to the awe and good fear we have (reverence, admiration). There is no fear in God. Only the awe and reverence. The trembling has also been translated as a distrust in ourselves (because we can only trust in Him). We trade our heavy yoke every day for His light one! He has done it and we can rest in Him! We can listen to His voice and walk in His power against darkness, lol!
The "new creation identity" is not about us never messing up and/or doing wrong things anymore. It's about our identity and who we are in Christ. Its about practicing the presence of God.
I hope the points I am trying to make aren't missed by a rabbit trail discussion on technicalities.
Jesus didn't carry HIS cross. He carried OUR cross for us.
I'm not saying that hard times don't come. I'm saying that you can have supernatural joy in the midst of them.
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Kind of a quick call everyone else a heretic before they label you one? 
