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Post by carebear on Mar 14, 2011 17:43:51 GMT -8
Good word!
en duo--sink into the 'new man'; 'sink into' the fruits of the Spirit! repent...change your mind. whacked...LOL! shinga longi bonky! ;D
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Post by Josh on Mar 14, 2011 21:12:47 GMT -8
First off, I don't want to be a stick in the mud here, but I have to disagree with some of his theology here.
I understand he's trying to make sense of some tricky passages in Paul about the old man/ new man, but I think he's misunderstanding Paul's paradoxical language.
I don't think Ephesians 4:17-32 is talking only about a past putting off of the old man, but a present need to continually put off the old sinful nature which tries to resurrect itself:
17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed. 20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
notice how verse 17 and 25-32 all speak about the present need to put off the old nature.
We also see this same thing in Colossians 3:1-14:
1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Here again it is treated as a real possibility that we, though we are in one sense new creations in Christ, might still set our minds on earthly things. And again in verse 5 we are told to "put to death whatever [still] belongs to our old sinful nature". Notice it also says we are "being renewed" here, not simply "we have been renewed"
Even Romans 6:1-14 which emphasizes the "new creation" very strongly still suggests that there is a possibility we might let sin reign in our mortal bodies once more (v. 12-13).
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Add to this the fact that Christ says we cannot be his disciples unless we take up our cross, dying to ourselves daily (Luke 9:23). The "ourselves" he is referring to cannot be our new creation, because there is no need for that to be killed- but there is a need to keep on killing the old man apparently.
Also, I don't agree (if I'm understanding him correctly) that the new life in Christ is "effortless" as he puts it.
2 Peter 3:14
So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.
2 Peter 1:5-6
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness...
Hebrews 12:14
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
2 John 1:8
Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
I could go on with verses like this that emphasize that discipleship is work and will feel like work, even though the Holy Spirit empowers us to live Godly lives.
There is a paradox of our life in Christ: we are a new creation, the old has gone in one sense, and yet we also still live in the tension between the old man and the new man in a different sense; we work and yet it the Lord who works.
It bothers me when I see these paradoxes oversimplified because I think it sends some subtly misleading messages.
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Post by Josh on Mar 14, 2011 21:16:32 GMT -8
By the way, he's totally right about how we need not be anxious or try to earn God's love or merit with God, how we need not shoulder the load of our own attempts toward righteousness. I just think he's getting confused about some of the details. POSTED LATER, OCT. 18: I'm uncomfortable with this statement of Crowders. I DO think that this is one point of the Sermon on the Mount, but it seems like he's missing a couple other points of the sermon on the mount: 1) That God demands that we be perfect because unless we are perfected we cannot unter into intimate relationship with Him (which is also a set-up for the grace we find in Jesus) 2) That God intends that his followers will be brought to a place where they will be able to follow his teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, through His strength. The admonitions Jesus gives in the Sermon on the Mount aren't obsolete in the New Covenant, though the power to be brought to that kind of lifestyle doesn't reside in our own power. In other words, Jesus doesn't tell us that lust is adultery or hatred murder JUST to frustrate us. He really means that He wants us to be brought to a place where we do not lust or hate. Again, I have to disagree with his understanding of the relationship between the old man vs. the new creation in our lives. We've already discussed that here: aletheia.proboards.com/index.cgi?....lay&thread=3293But at the end of this clip when he says that we should not be "pressing, wrestling, and contending" in the New Covenant life brings that issue all back up again. It's as if Crowder leaves no place for the ongoing fight against sin and the discipline of discipleship in the life of a Christian. Crowder may not understand why many pastors and Christian leaders don't want to be associated with him, but it seems clear to me it's because of concerns like this.
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Post by freebirdro on Oct 19, 2011 20:56:57 GMT -8
Josh wrote:
I have a few questions: How much in terms of some sort of measurement are you wanting to wrestle against sin? And how much God? Don't you think that John is saying that we need to wrestle (as you are saying) but just in a different manner (John seems to focus more on who we are, not what we can do. He seems to focus on our fight against sin by using the tactic of 'losing control to God' (i.e.: the cross) instead of keeping things under our control (which only leads to sin).
The way we wrestle decides the war. Israel won battles only fought with God's way of wrestling.
I think what John is saying is the way we win the battle against sin is being under His influence and not under our influence. I think he is agreeing with you. Just maybe looking at it from a different angle. Dali Lama proved that he can live without a lot of sin under his own influence. but that is a different subject.
I personally don't even measure someones closeness to God by how un-sinful they are. David would be an example: murderer, adulterer, etc. That's not to say that sin is to be taken lightly. But the way we fight against sin is (I think) important to God. Religion and the Pharisees were very good at staying away from sin. Jesus didn't like many of them. Why? Because they were wrestling against sin without God's power. That's what religion is. Our wrestling should be according to His instructions.
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Post by Josh on Oct 26, 2011 19:57:26 GMT -8
Here's more from Crowder on this subject.
His take on Philippians 3:12's reference to perfection as merely "finishing the race" is a valid option.
But that said, his overall view on this subject is patently false.
In the video above, Crowder claims: When you’re not a sinner any more, it’s kind of difficult to sin. There’s no sinfulness in you. Jesus doesn’t just forgive your sins, he eradicated sinfulness from you.
So, how would Crowder answer the question: are Christians able to sin? He's implying that they cannot, yet John said that if we claim there is no sin in us, we are liars (1 John 1:10). In case he would try to interpret this as merely pre-Christian sin, John goes on to say to Christians:
1 John 2:1 NIV My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
which affirms that it is possible for a believer to sin.
James assumes that there will be times we need to confess our sins:
James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
Does Crowder believe that he doesn't ever sin? If so, that's scary.
If Crowder is saying that Christians cannot sin, I would have to say he's teaching heresy, something akin to what the Manichean Gnostics taught, that "their spiritual being was unaffected by the action of matter and regarded carnal sins as being, at worst, forms of bodily disease." I try to only judiciously level the charge of heresy, but that would definitely be a line in the sand.
Freebird, please read all of my comments on this thread, because I think this is a really important issue.
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Post by Josh on Oct 26, 2011 20:07:38 GMT -8
James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
Has Crowder ever failed to do some good he was convicted he should do? Then he has sinned.
Romans 14:23b ... and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Has Crowder ever lacked faith in anything he has done? Then he has sinned.
The very fact that he's trying to convince Christians of something that he things they've gotten wrong, implies that he believes they have not been acting on faith, which is a sin. If he's saying that Christians don't sin, then his argument is self-defeating!
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Post by Josh on Oct 26, 2011 20:35:40 GMT -8
Another relevant verse:
Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who arebeing made holy.
that demonstrates that though in some senses we have been perfected (past tense), in other ways we are yet being perfected (present tense). Again, it's a paradox that Crowder is trying to oversimplify.
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Post by freebirdro on Oct 27, 2011 8:53:27 GMT -8
It impossible to be holy and a sinner at the same time. The delusion is in our mind. We are perfected in Christ; we are not sinners, we are saints. We can't be both--this is the whole point. We have to operate from the perspective that we are saints, but we do sin when we disconnect from Him. We choose to disconnect from God--it's not the choice of some force over us that struggles against us.
The sinful nature was killed at the cross, but we can stop believing who we are (saints) or disconnect from God anytime we want. When we do this, we are accessing the 'old mind' that is not renewed completely yet. But it can get better in time under His presence. Free will is the key to a relationship; we chose to disobey again and again,and not trust him about who we are. If we focus on this body being sinful, we will usually get the object of our focus. There is absolutely nothing we can do to make Him love us more. It is finished. God's plan is too simple for people to accept sometimes. Even children should understand the scriptures and be able to access His joy. That means it should not be that complicated. Just Jesus on the cross.
We somehow feel that we need to do something to be loved. If we try so hard not to sin, will He love us more? It sounds like that could be an identity crisis: "If we can be good boys and girls, then God will love us more?"...that is defined as conditional love. I don't want any of that, that is heresy in my opinion if we have to do something instead of being someone. What he wants from us is to accept His gift. Trust in what He says He wants, because He knows that if we will trust Him then everything will be taken care of. Rest and enjoy. I think the problem is when we try to complicate things.
We need to make every effort to rest and trust; make every effort to let Him live through us. That is our cross. It is not like we only have a little bit of God and if we achieve something we will get all of Him,.... He is not separated into small parts, He is whole in us now. He has given all of Him and the cross proves it. Religion regulates Him and limits our access to Him. He can't live in a sinful person. We have been perfected on the cross before we committed all our future sins. It happened, even if we still sin, we are still perfect. We sin because our mind is not renewed by His Spirit.
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Post by Josh on Oct 27, 2011 14:45:34 GMT -8
If there is something in us that can still sin, then there is still a part of us that isn’t perfect or perfectly holy. You can call that part what you want (sin nature, etc.) but there is still an aspect/ part of us that is not yet holy. That aspect is not yet gone, it will be one day, when we are glorified in the kingdom of heaven. There will come a day when all that is left of us is the new creation and the old man will not raise its head from the grave anymore, but until then we must still put to death our misdeeds by choosing to obey God through the power of the Holy Spirit. It’s not a way of earning His love; that is unconditional. But by cooperating with His Holy Spirit, we can earn His pleasure, just as through our sins we can grieve His Holy Spirit.
BTW, if we can grieve the Holy Spirit (which would be a sin), then that’s just one more evidence that in our entirety we are not yet perfect.
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Post by freebirdro on Oct 27, 2011 16:53:57 GMT -8
*Note: I edited some of my last post because I sent it from my phone and some words came out misspelled. **
In response to your last post Josh: I call that 'the old mind', or bad thinking. Our mind needs to be renewed, but our spirit and us as an identity is Holy. Only in His presence can our minds be renewed.
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Post by freebirdro on Oct 28, 2011 7:59:56 GMT -8
Josh, did you read my comments on Oct. 19th? Did you answer the questions I asked?
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Post by Josh on Oct 28, 2011 17:26:00 GMT -8
I realize that the term "sin nature" has some extra baggage, but call it what you will- the "old man", the "old man", our "corrupt part", the "old mind", our "doppleganger", etc.. the point is that there is a still a part of us capable of sin. And that fact undermines Crowder's simplistic assessment. Paul uses paradox on this subject precisely because it's complicated.
The mind is a perfect example. It must, as you say, be corrupted, because we are told to continually renew it. However, at the same time Paul himself says we've been given the "mind of Christ". Which is it? Do we have the new or the old?
The answer is that we have BOTH, for the moment.
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Post by Josh on Oct 28, 2011 18:23:11 GMT -8
sorry I missed responding to this- Josh wrote: I have a few questions: How much in terms of some sort of measurement are you wanting to wrestle against sin? And how much God? Don't you think that John is saying that we need to wrestle (as you are saying) but just in a different manner (John seems to focus more on who we are, not what we can do. He seems to focus on our fight against sin by using the tactic of 'losing control to God' (i.e.: the cross) instead of keeping things under our control (which only leads to sin). The way we wrestle decides the war. Israel won battles only fought with God's way of wrestling. I think what John is saying is the way we win the battle against sin is being under His influence and not under our influence. I think he is agreeing with you. Just maybe looking at it from a different angle. Dali Lama proved that he can live without a lot of sin under his own influence. but that is a different subject. Read this passage from Hebrews and notice how much the author assumes that "struggle" will be part of the Christian experience. Hebrews 12 4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." 7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. 12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13 "Make level paths for your feet," so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed. Warning Against Refusing God 14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears. I'd suggest we look at the struggle this way: like an out of shape person might view their training for a marathon. No matter what, it's going to be HARD, HARD work. There are going to be days when it seems like it's just almost too hard. However, if they can retain their original inspiration, and let it grow from a spark to a fire, then the work will not be onerous, it will not be oppressive. It will be worthwhile and rewarding. Yes, the struggle often involves surrender, which, ironically, is one of the hardest, sweat-producing things to do in the spiritual life. What do you think about verses in the Bible that DO measure someone's closeness to God by their purity? (like Matthew 5:8) Or specific admonitions in the New Testament not that we just be righteous (stated in the positive), but also that we not sin (stated in the negative), like: 1 Thessalonians 5:22 Avoid every kind of evil.John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.or Eph. 4:26 or Acts 15:29, and on and on. This reminds me of some of the wrongheaded movements in parenting and education where teachers and parents are afraid to tell their kids no or to state something in the negative. Sometimes we do need to think about WHAT NOT TO DO, even if we might need to hear WHAT TO DO more. As to the Pharisees, Jesus did point out their sins, and they were the worst kinds! Pride, arrogance, disbelief, etc..
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Post by freebirdro on Oct 29, 2011 10:51:34 GMT -8
Yes, we are given the mind of Christ--so we don't have to use that ''old mind''. He is saying that we can only operate with the mind of Christ if we are full of the Spirit.
Most people feel (including me) that they are living with a dead man on their back because we are operating most of the time from the old mind perspective--coupled with religion, discipline, and sometimes the mind of Christ. The fight against sin 'till we bleed'' is not referring to our worldly discipline techniques but to our dying to our own effort (our blood flowing out=death).
All through the Bible God is saying: "Be possessed by Me in order to 'be pure'. Be full of the Spirit." Oh wait that means we need to die, too bad. Our personalities are preserved and we are not really losing anything except the old mind.
If someone seeks to be filled at all times, should we 'stone him'? or find reasons to 'stone him'? Being full of the Spirit makes the yolk easier. That is what John is saying. Yes I agree that there is an element of continued repentance on our part in order to be able to access his Spirit. But we do that because we want His bliss, not because ''we have to''. Renewing our mind also includes the ability to be full of the Spirit at all times. That is what he is trying to prove.
We can say that we can't do that because we have the sinful nature pulling us back like a truck; or we can say that Jesus killed the sinful nature at the cross and the only thing left is for us to take it by trust.
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Post by Josh on Nov 1, 2011 16:37:36 GMT -8
What are you saying about discipline? Isn't discipline important for the "disciple" of Jesus?
I don't think it's either of those actually. I think it's referring to martyrdom.
If I understand you correctly here, I'd say I'm mostly in agreement with these statements. However, although I think that at any given moment it is always possible to "walk in the Spirit", and we aren't "doomed" to sin, we must also be honest to the reality that we do sometimes sin (some more, some less, but even Peter, John, and Paul couldn't claim to be completely without sin, always walking completely in step with the spirit). I would certainly not fault someone for trying to walk in the spirit all the time (hey, we're back to focusing on the role of the believer in cooperation with God- it's simply unavoidable!). We ARE supposed to walk in the spirit all the time. But, paradoxically, I would be leery of someone who claims there is no longer any battle within them to do so.
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Post by freebirdro on Nov 1, 2011 18:14:01 GMT -8
I would say that I don't know if this matter is essential. But I always felt best when I Knew the He did it all and I respond to that.
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Post by carebear on Nov 14, 2011 18:53:24 GMT -8
" We often get the question: "If Paul preached that the sinful nature is gone, why does he call himself the 'chief of sinners?'"
Q: If Paul is perfect, why does he call himself the chief of sinners (1 Tim. 1:15)?
He's referring to his days as a terrorist murderer of Christians. He was perhaps the early church's top persecutor at the time -- maybe the first one to go out and slaughter innocent Christian families. His conversion would have been as dramatic as Osama Bin Laden getting saved.
Muhammed Ali still refers to himself as "The Champion of the World." But he hasn't boxed in years. He's saying that he was once the toughest boxer in the ring. In the same way, Paul is saying he still held the world record at sinning!
He's not implying that he's "still" a sinner. He's pointing to his testimony as a former persecutor and blasphemer against the name of Christ (look back two verses to 1 Tim. 1:13).
If this is Paul's present state then he shouldn't be in ministry. We don't knowingly allow active adulterers or child molesters into our pulpits. But Paul is openly casting himself in a worse light than all of that if he is saying he CURRENTLY is the "chief" of all sinners.
In 1 Cor. 4:4, Paul adds: "For I am not conscious of any wrong in myself; but this does not make me clear, for it is the Lord who is my judge."
He's essentially saying, "I don't know of any existing sin in my own life. But that's not what I'm trusting in -- not my own sinlessness -- rather I trust in Jesus who clears my record before the Father."
Paul is free from indwelling sin. But his hope is not in his own state of cleanliness. His hope is in the One who cleansed Him.
Check out the Adam Clarke commentary on this verse - it's free online. www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=1ti&chapter=001
1 Timothy - Chapter 1 - Adam Clarke Commentary on StudyLight.org www.studylight.org Adam Clarke Commentary on StudyLight.org"From John Crowder
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