|
Post by Josh on Nov 14, 2011 20:47:28 GMT -8
Agreed that in that verse Paul is talking about his life before Christ.
But, carrie, simple question:
if a Christian can and does sin, are they a sinner in any sense?
|
|
|
Post by carebear on Nov 15, 2011 11:26:09 GMT -8
I have a great book that may answer your question Mystical Union
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Nov 15, 2011 16:30:23 GMT -8
I'm more interested in your answer...
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Nov 16, 2011 21:05:45 GMT -8
I have a great book that may answer your question Mystical Union I'm open to reviewing it myself, but I still would like to hear your answer. Here's a relevant review of Mystical Union I found at christhauntedworld.blogspot.com/2011/06/review-of-mystical-union-by-john.html. I've bolded the most relevent parts. There are two things you should know about this book before you spend any money on it. First, there is absolutely nothing in this book that even vaguely resembles classic mysticism in any form. The followers of John Crowder call themselves the "New Mystics." Fair enough. But it would be disingenuous for them to portray anything he teaches as classic mysticism, because it is not mystical at all in that sense. If you are interested in the mystics, my suggestion would be to go to the mystics. Go to John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila and Thomas Merton and A.W. Tozer and other time-tested and authentic Christian mystics. Read Evelyn Underhill. Don't settle for an imitation when the authentic is available. Sure, delving into real mysticism will cost you something, but the fruits are far sweeter than the ready-made and easy-to-use alternative, trendy and cool as it may appear. Second, although Crowder fancies himself just about the only true exegete of truth to the modern Church, what he's actually teaching in this book is a confusing blend of American cultural fundamentalism, sinless perfectionism and a strange sort of antinomian bondage wherein if a person does sin, they probably need to "get saved!" Crowder's theology is so jumbled he continually stumbles over himself in the confusion. For instance, on page 39, Crowder boldly asserts that, "Saved people don't sin." Then he immediately states that if you do sin you are either "an unbeliever" or just haven't been taught his peculiar method of not sinning. He attempts to twist a veritable cornucopia of scriptures into meaning precisely the opposite of what they say in order to prove his doctrine that believers don't sin, except sometimes, but not really, well maybe, perhaps, no, definitely not... He uses a plethora of off-beat Bible translations in order to attempt to prove the biblically unprovable. Again, my suggestion is that if you are interested in the mystics and authentic Christian mysticism, then go to the mystics. If you want to know what the Bible teaches, read the Bible. If you'll stick to the simple and true path, you'll find that you will avoid the pitfalls and confusion that await those who seek shortcuts.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Nov 16, 2011 21:12:32 GMT -8
Here's another one from pieceofburlap.blogspot.com/2011/09/book-review-of-mystical-union-by-john.html by Seph Sayers It's long, but worth the read: Thursday, September 1, 2011 Book Review of Mystical Union, by John Crowder
This book self-proclaims itself to be revolutionary and is said to speak of a scandalous truth of grace and the promise to wreck self-effort theologies. In fact, in the author's notes within the first 10 pages, he gives a humorous warning; "We will barbecue some sacred theological cows. At times, it could be a virtual slaughterhouse".
At this point, he had my undivided attention and unbridled curiosity! Unfortunately that is as far as it went.
He spends a great deal of time establishing that we do not have to add to God's grace. That we are free from the laws of Judaism. That we are freed from the Law, that we are freed from legalism, yet often the church attempts to replace the old Judaic laws with their own new laws. He makes a great statement on page 150,
“Remember, grace has to be drunk straight. The law is an add-on
Always remember this simple equation: grace plus law equals law.”
He goes out of his way to bring into sharp focus silly self-help programs and those who might monopolize on those of us in need. Inner healing, deliverance courses, Christian counseling (having no differential comparison to secular psychology).
He then goes on the warn of the deliverance counselor's (focusing on keeping themselves in business indefinitely) who keeps their patience in a perpetual state of need – as well as making the patient subjective to a form of “works”. (Legalism as opposed to Grace). Ultimately he is making all these things as being synonymous with a “Old Covenant, do-it-yourself perspective”.
He makes great points in regards to 'acquired' spiritual 'gifts'. The warning, the point being that these are some form of self-effort of their own doing.
“Paul said that the Galatians were bamboozled. They had been hoodwinked... The Galatian bewitchment, very simply, mean to work for the gift... These guys [Charismatic speakers] never fail to mesmerize the crowds with their self-abasement. Though they wouldn't say it, they take great delight in making you feel lazy, less spiritual and incompetent in comparison to them.” pg. 141
It has been years since I read a book that pissed me off as much as this one did. (And no, not because, as John Crowder says, this "gospel I may have never heard before... threatens to turn my Christianity upside down". Not as all. I thoroughly look forward and enjoy my ideas of Christianity turned upside down. It's sobering and refreshing.
I am faced with some difficulties when writing this book review. Allow me to first say that I wholeheartedly disagree with the angle this book is pitching. But that posed a significant problem for me. Am I the kind of person who gives good book reviews to those whose opinions a line with my own and bad reviews to those who I disagree with, I asked myself? Ultimately I fear this will not be simply a book review, but is going to contain elements for discussion, and a certain degree of analysis alongside being a review.
I needed to establish the parameters that this book exists in; John Crowder's rules of the game if you wish. Clearly an Evangelical, a Born Again Christian, and Charismatic.
“Jesus did not come to be your example. He came as your substitute.” pg. 164 So, clearly, Jesus is in no way an exemplar to this author.
He makes the point that the gospels were written for the sake of the Pauline epistles and not the other way around. (which is true and near impossible to disagree with). He then states that we have to see the entire bible through “Pauline eyes”, which if we're going to promote Grace, works quite well.
The basic message, put simply in a nutshell, is that once saved, the sinful nature is instantaneously gone. No more "old man" to do battle with. No more struggles with sin. No more personal cross to bear". No more purgation. In fact, a Christian cannot sin. No process, no time, no sanctification; instant change.
And more importantly, absolutely no need of self-effort (Because of grace) you cannot earn your way or God's favour. It's all instant and free. (I agree with this part).
But that's where the first cracks appear. On page 23 he says, "Your union with God in Christ is instant and effortless. It happened the first moment you believed". (I don't agree with this statement, but I need to remember that I am reading this book within the parameters of the author).
Rob Bell, in Love Wins puts it best,
"If the message of Jesus is that God is offering the free gift of eternal life through him - a gift we cannot earn by our own efforts, works, or good deeds - and all we have to do is accept and confess and believe, aren't those verbs?
"Aren't verbs actions?
"Accepting, confessing, believing - those are things we do".
But John Crowder at least attempts to address this 'condition' to some degree by says, “Granted, loving God is definitely the “greatest” commandment. But it is still a commandment. It is the grand summation of the law. And we know that law does not save us.” pg. 183 It is a great point and nearly echoing Rob Bell's point. But then he takes a complete 180, saying “The cross is the fountainhead of all love. If you won't accept that He [God] accepts you... then you have no part in Him” pg. 183, returning to a conditional grace.
I think one the the biggest stumbling blocks faced by this book is a lack of imagination when it comes to viewing metaphoric truths and literal truths.
“One of the most amazing aspects of martial union is that of co-habitation. You do not have an infrequent audience with the King. You sit ever with Him enthroned. Just as the husband and wife live together in uninterrupted fellowship, so do we dwell in God's house both now and forevermore. A wife is afforded benefit that a stranger could never conceive possible” pg. 190-191 Here is the inherent problem. When a metaphoric interpretation is forced into a literal reality it becomes delusional. He continues by saying,
“The abundant blessings of this union are far too many to account. Physical healing. Financial provision. Reconciliation in relationships. Emotional fulfillment. Unspeakable joy. Righteous authority to be wielded over regions and people groups. Creative miraculous abilities. Mystical powers. Authority in this age and the age to come. The possibilities are endless, as you are wed to God”. pg. 190 Physical healings? Financial provision?! Really?!? The danger with this is when these fruit do not manifest. What does that mean?
But then John Crowder answers this question.
“One of the biggest stumbling blocks to the gospel message (from charismatics anyway) revolves around the topic of manifestations. If I am really in effortless union with God, then why don't I levitate every day? Why don't I heal every single person I meet on the street? Why don't I glow like a light bulb?... A powerless life is a symptom of the fall. But be assured that the antidote to this disease will always [be] the same. Belief in Christ's finished work is the mother lode of all supernatural power and experience.” pg. 191-192 “So the born-again person can never be, basically, self-centered again. You can move in a self-centered act. You can't be self-centered”. pg. 85
“Your union with God in Christ is instant and effortless. It happened the first moment you believed.” pg. 23 (Crowder's definition of a true Christian). “Saved people don't sin”. pg. 39 (Again, fleshing out his definition of what a Christian is).
But here's where the confusion starts. “Nor am I saying that it is impossible for a Christian to sin”. pg. 202
”A powerless life is a symptom of the fall” What?! I thought a Christian was free of, absolutely cured of, and immune to sin. I think what he unknowingly and unintentionally revealed was the Achilles Heel of the Charismatic movement. But, ironically enough, he goes on pointing out the problems with churches.
He subtly ditches Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox churches. I believe he misses the values he would identify as Mariolatry and theosis, but yet rambles on about his witnessing miracles of levitation, healings, gold dust creation, oil running down church walls, tongues, etc., in what I can only hope is meant as some form of humour. Ultimately I think John Crowder is exhibiting little more than veiled Tribalism.
"When I wake up everyday, I just know that my old depressed self went into the grave with Jesus. It is difficult for a dead man to be worried about his bank statement or a bad doctor's report. No circumstance can dictate my emotional state. The gospel tells me that my old critically religious self no longer exists! If I'm feeling bored with my Christian walk, the message of the gospel quickly snaps me out of that lie. My old boring self is dead. The new me is intoxicated on the wine of the New Covenant. I can "reckon myself dead" with Christ... simply realizing that I do not own those negative feelings any longer". Mystical Union, by John Crowder, page 34-35 What is this, the Prosperity Gospel? What this is preaching is the delusion of perpetual happiness. The facts of the matter are people (yes, even Christians) do worry about their financial health and are concerned when bad news comes from their doctor. People/Christians do struggle with right and wrong and do choose incorrectly and selfishly at times - they still sin.
"Saved people don't sin". pg. 39 Yes, they do. So, how do we deal with the problem of evil?
“Some think that an over-emphasis on God's sovereignty and a diminishing of the human will blames God for evil. Rest in this: God is sovereign, but He is also good. Rather than blame Him for sickness and trials, let us believe Him for healing and deliverance. He doesn't dirty your water, but His sovereignty, He changes it into wine.” pg. 162 This really says nothing. It absolutely side-steps the problem of evil and relegates it into infantile levels. I can't honestly blame or fault anyone for avoiding the problem of evil. It's no simple issue. However, please don't spoon feed me crap if you're not up to the task.
This isn't even worth addressing, it is so outlandish.
...but all this aside! As scandalous and incredible as this all is, does he make his case?
Well, for those of you truly interested in reading this book, I won't give it away. But I'll say this much. In the introduction, he provides a biblical translation index (just to help you out and make things clearer) he goes on to list the forty-eight bible versions he quotes from!
Although I agree that making use of at least a couple of biblical translations is good practice, especially when attempting to make head-and-tails of some difficult passages, there is a danger when this many versions/translations/interpretations are used. The tendency is to pick and choose whichever one best fits the angle you're trying to sell. Not all translations are good and accurate.
~
In every book review I always like to attempt to address either the book's "target market" or who would be interested in reading it.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure I can answer these questions. I get locked up in a preemptive state. I notice what can only be poor editing or poor grammar. Take your pick.
...so I check who the publisher is. "Sons of Thunder Ministries & Publications" Founder? The author himself; John Crowder.
Reminds me of how many magazine covers Oprah appears on. Wow! A lot... until you realize she owns the magazine.
I can't help but think the prime "target market" would be people in his ministry itself. (And I hope I'm wrong on this one because it sounds a little too cultish to me). Maybe people attending his seminars/speeches may pick of a copy in the spur of the moment.
“We do not base out theology on subjective experience. Rather, we allow the Word to be our springboard for experiencing the divine”. (read in Sola Scriptura or Biblioatry). ”Experience is in no way a qualifier or pre-requisite for union. But experience will follow true faith, because true faith always manifests, works and demonstrates”. pg. 195-196 What exactly is he saying here? I can't help but think his point is one's experiences are only valid if confirmed through the bible. What about those experiences that are not? But I think he ultimately answers this question as well.
A true Christian is sinless, cannot sin, and is immune to sin. A true faith always manifests miracles. ...and for those who do sin and cannot or do not manifest miracles? This is the same old divisive Christianity that the world has long since grown tired of. This is, yet again, another attempt to market Unconditional Grace with religiosity's conditions quietly slipped in. There's little 'scandalous and revolutionary' about this concept and even less so about this book.
“If you are exploiting the grace of God – sinning under the guise of your perfection – please do the rest of us a favor and stop calling yourself a Christian”. pg. 202
|
|
|
Post by carebear on Nov 17, 2011 9:31:29 GMT -8
Sorry, these reviews sound very one-sided to me. Not much help I think. The author of the reviews took a lot of things out of context to make John sound so scary I decided to just respond to one quote the review author used from the book in your post (because I really don't have time to point out all the out-of-context quotes he used): In the book John Crowder quotes 1 John 3:6-10, NIV: "6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known Him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister."Then John goes on to write: " Legalistic, do-it-yourself Christians hate this passage, because it indicts them. They get nervous, that if they ever sin, they will become the devil's child! This just proves that they are tense and anxious and trying to maintain their own salvation. John is just making it clear that it is impossible to stop sinning without real conversion! And real conversion effortlessly leads you to a happy holy life. I absolutely love these verses, because they are proof positive of a real, tangible transformation that only Christ can accomplish. Saved people don't sin. p. 39"
"The most puzzling question that people ask is this: 'If I don't have a sinful nature, why do I still sin?'
Some people see a disparity between what they believe and what their daily lives look like. This very gap between the scriptures and the reality of their daily lives is what causes so many Theologians and Christian therapists to contort the word of God and conform it to their naughty behavior. In other words, they think: 'because I still sin, then surely I still have a sinful nature.' But you never base the truth on your experiences. Instead, your experiences should be dictated by the truth. We are faith-based mystics. If you still wrestle with sin as a believer, there are a couple of options as to why this may be. This question has a multiple-choice answer.
Question: 'If I don't have a sinful nature, why do I still sin?' A) Maybe you're an unbeliever B)Maybe no one ever told you any of this
For most of you reading this, option A is not true for you. You're a Christian. Obviously, an unbeliever does still live by the false identity as a 'sinner'.
However, it is possible that you never actually heard or believed the gospel, even though you clocked into church for decades. Maybe you've attended thousands of prophecy conferences and deliverance classes, but still you never heard the message of grace. Maybe you just thought Christianity was a do-it-yourself morality club. A clean-yourself-up process of continually seeking but never finding God. If that's you--if you were never actually transformed by the glorious finished work of Christ, don't cry over those wasted years. Here's your chance...accept your salvation!
If you've been taught that Christianity is a lifelong process of struggling and brokenness. I would invite you to be whole. Give up and let Jesus run your Christianity.
If you are a born-again Christian who struggles with sin, then probably choice B is the real reason for it. No one ever told you that you are not a sinner anymore. You were probably told over and over again by pastors and leaders that you still have to fight off your old flesh. And so, for years, you ran around like a dog chasing his tail, trying to fix something that was already fixed. And all you did was amplify a problem that was already taken care of.
You've been told to expect your whole life to be a struggle against sin. If you think you're still a sinner, then guess what? What do you think your life is going to manifest? C.S. Lewis once said, 'You are what you believe.' If you believe you are still a sinner, you will manifest sin. If you believe you are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, then you are going to manifest righteousness. Believe you are holy and you will manifest holy. That's who you really are. This is not the so-called power of positive thinking. This is aligning with the word of God. Saved people don't want to sin and don't need to sin. If they do, they forgot who they are and can repent and turn back. They are not labeled a sinner anymore because of the cross.
|
|
|
Post by carebear on Nov 17, 2011 9:52:35 GMT -8
And one more because I think it's almost ridiculous how this review author is pulling stuff out of context to make it sound different.
In the book it reads on pg. 202:
What I am Not Saying
I want to be clear on this matter, because somebody is still having a hard time swallowing the message. Let me tell you what I am NOT saying. Martin Luther commented, "You are not only responsible for what you say, but also for what you do not say."
Ii am not saying that Christians do not mature. We are also still in a lifelong process of growing in revelation and understanding. We are all still learning, and this requires humility and teachability.
Immaturity is not sin. It's OK to act like a toddler if you are a toddler. Immaturity is only wrong when you are thirty-eight years old and still acting like a toddler. Likewise, because you are still a student in the process of learning and training, does not make you a sinner.
To say you are perfect in holiness does not indicate that you are yet fully grown. And we are all still growing. We will forever grow in the Glory.
The person who says they can sin to their hearts content because they are now 'perfect' has not understood a word I have preached from the beginning. Nor am I saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian to sin.
If you are exploiting the grace of God--sinning under the guise of your perfection--please do the rest of us a favor and stop calling yourself a Christian. If the Lord reveals a wrong way of action or thinking in your life, just repent--turn back to faith--and let it go.
What I am saying is that repentance is a byproduct of salvation--not its prerequisite. In believing you are made righteous, you will manifest that righteousness. It is a dependent righteousness that flows from being IN HIM. It is a real, tangible God-given God-righteousness.
(*note: the all caps words were actually italicized in the book but I couldn't italicize inside an italicize).
|
|
|
Post by Kirby on Nov 17, 2011 23:12:19 GMT -8
I have not read the book, but read through this thread, and this piqued my interest. Is Crowder basing this interpretation on exegetical analysis (to me meaning looking at original language usage and context)? Or providing a personal observation about Paul's claim?
I love the idea of comparing Paul to Ali. Paul kind of floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee sometimes.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Nov 19, 2011 13:32:14 GMT -8
Crowder's suggestion that Christians who do appear to sin are just in that state because they haven't been taught better is silly. Sin is sin. And even if it is just a lack of appropriate faith, anything not done of faith or the good we ought to do but don't is sin anyway! (James 4:17, Romans 14:23) Wow. That's crossing a line. Pastors are certainly to warn their flock (believers) about the battle not to sin: 1 Thess. 4:6 and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before.1 Timothy 5:20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.(note: even elders can sin!!! ) Notice how on almost every page of the epistles a grand struggle is described, in which our choices matter, in which we can choose to obey or choose to grieve the Holy Spirit. Just one more passage that exemplifies this: 1 Timothy 6: 11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame (implies that you could incur some blame) until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. The best construction of what Paul and James and the other New Testament authors are saying about our nature is that, in effect, there are two of us: the New Creation which God is growing in us, which is Jesus' righteousness/ perfection in us, and the old self which has been dealt a decisive blow but still need to be mortified daily. Notice in the passage above how Paul has to say to those who are already believers: Take hold of the eternal life? That's like him saying, grab onto the part of you that Christ has perfected- stop acting out of the old man, which is still a very real possibility. We must not deny that there is still a battle with our old nature- that's why John says we are liar if we do (1 John 1:8). Even though Crowder tries to marshall C.S. Lewis on his side several times in his writings, Lewis would never have been associated with this denial of the battle with our old nature. this is true of the New Creation part of us only, but our old nature, which is still a part of us does still want to sin. That's such an obvious fact that Crowder has to go through amazing mental gymnastics to avoid it. Here he contradicts himself immediately after the preceded sentence. He's missing the point that the very "forgetting" would itself be a sin! The fact that he admits here that Christians will have to repent undermines his whole point. I don't necessarily dispute this, depending on what we mean by "sinner". I'm okay with Christians saying that they are sinners if by that they are just acknowledging that they do sometimes sin. But not if they think of that as their primary identity, because Paul has told us to daily put off the old and put on the New Creation. I'd be very curious to hear him give an actual example of something he considers immaturity but not sin I agree with this, but it doesn't follow from this that we don't fight against sin or that our own choices don't matter. Lastly, I feel like MANY of the points from Scripture I have made already on this thread haven't really been responded to. If people have the time, I'd like to hear people's thoughts on them.
|
|
|
Post by freebirdro on Nov 21, 2011 8:57:24 GMT -8
Most of your questions will be answered if you read that book I gave you Josh. It is too much and I don't have the time to explain. Basically the main point is that Sin as a power is dead. Now we just need to walk by faith and spirit in our new identities. The problem is when we confuse our old mind with sin. When we walk in the old mind we are in a state of unbelief. And during that time we forget who we really are and we think we are actually sining ( let us not confuse sining with walking in the old mind.)
|
|
|
Post by freebirdro on Nov 21, 2011 9:52:56 GMT -8
I hope you find some positive and also review his work, before you post something that is negative about it without review it. It seems a little presumptuous.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Nov 21, 2011 20:29:27 GMT -8
Here's the thing- I haven't gotten a lot of personal response from you guys on this- more of a reliance on Crowder's own words or vague responses. I'm more interesting in reasoning with you both about the sin nature than signing up to read his book. If you're attracted by his theology, then being able to articulate it yourself is one way to test it out. However, yeah, it was a bit tedious to post all that long review stuff. Copying and pasting long segments is not really good discussion boards material. Sorry about that.
I will try and delve into the book as I have time (I have a lot of other books on the list right now, but I think I can take it in chunks).
I have to be honest, though. I think this topic is much more important and concerning to me than anything directly related to anything "charismatic".
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Nov 21, 2011 20:37:29 GMT -8
Okay. First page of the "author's note" on page 9: "It is high time the church gets delivered from God pleasing."This is a major point of disagreement already. I can't believe he holds this position when it is so clear in Scripture that though we can't earn God's love, our choices can either please Him or displease him. I've written on this subject before, and I like to hear your thoughts there because I think this is pretty important: www.aletheia.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=christianliving&action=display&thread=1479Page 10 " I want to warn you here from the start that much of your existing theology is going to be flushed down the toilet as you read. Areas where you assumed to be an expert on the "basics" of the faith may prove to be areas of borderline apostasy in your theological suitcase"Of course we all may find our views to be changed/ shaped/ morphed by what we study. No problem there. But the way he's already insinuating that people he disagrees with are apostates is troublesome to me. But I guess that's how you'd have to start a book that's attempting to disagree with central tenants that 99% of Christians 99% of church history have held. Don't get me wrong- I don't think that something is true just because a majority hold to it. But, if the deception in church history has really been as bad as he's suggesting, then the Holy Spirit has really been doing a lousy job leading his people in truth! I'm not here talking about finer points of theology or even the discussion of "sin nature"- I'm talking about very basic things like sin in the Christian life, pleasing/ displeasing God, etc..
|
|
|
Post by freebirdro on Nov 23, 2011 10:35:52 GMT -8
I think is important to take in consideration his communication style. he has a element of shock in his communication style. What he is saying is: stop pleasing God in order to go to heaven, or earn his love. he is talking about the wrong kind of pleasing with deeds instead of faith
|
|
|
Post by freebirdro on Nov 23, 2011 10:46:07 GMT -8
Josh, your attitude could be a little less on the offensive. Try to focus on the biblical points he is making and not on silly writing style. In other words hear what the donkey is saying and don't judge his teeth.
He is not putting the church down , he is lifting Jesus up.
|
|
|
Post by freebirdro on Nov 23, 2011 13:55:42 GMT -8
Pleasing with deeds should be secondary and almost a by product of the faith pleasing. Even faith pleasing can be done the wrong way. It is like God saying: ''You are my child, you are pleasing me by acting in your identity as my son , putting faith in my love for you, and doing good deeds because you are my sons ,you don't have to do good deeds to become my son, you already are.''
Not doing deeds to become his children. I think you agree with that.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Nov 24, 2011 13:55:06 GMT -8
I think is important to take in consideration his communication style. he has a element of shock in his communication style. What he is saying is: stop pleasing God in order to go to heaven, or earn his love. he is talking about the wrong kind of pleasing with deeds instead of faith Is there somewhere where he clarifies that? I think it's misleading as it is, and potentially dangerous. I agree with your statements about not having to please God before becoming his children, but I'm not sure that's exactly what the "donkey" is saying The reason I'm reacting more strongly on this than most other topics is because I think Crowder is messing with some primary, foundational doctrines, not just items of secondary importance. But that doesn't mean I can't agree with him on certain points.
|
|