The Pessimism of History

[Josh]

As I was reading Justinian's Flea today I thought of a comment Kirby made at Pubagetics. We were discussing some of the darker moments of Church history and whether or not history showed improvement in the way that Christians interacted with each other and the world.

Kirby pointed out that history tends to focus on the negative, so that perhaps all those Sundays were Christians gathered in peace and love to build each other up are lost to the historian and therefor we've been left with a darker picture than we ought to have been.

At least that a paraphrase of what I think he said. Kirby- does that sound about right?

I thought it was an interesting insight, and it came up as I was reading about all the intrigue of the world of the 6th Century notables- political, religious, etc. juxtaposed to the ordinary lives of ordinary Christians.

[Kirby]

That is a good summary of what I was trying to say. Basically, we enjoy a good story...drama, comedy, interesting events. Does the mundane day-to-day activities of the common man get recorded in history? Does John Q. Public* ever have groundbreaking philosophical discovery that we never hear about?

My point is that history is limited in this regard.

*anyone remember 90's band Johnny Q. Public? Saw them on the Saltbox tour with Grammatrain, Whiteheart, and Petra! I worked the stage door and met them all. Let's just say Petra, Whiteheart, and Grammatrain were really nice guys...

[Josh]

Let's just say Petra, Whiteheart, and Grammatrain were really nice guys...

[robcantrell11]

This is one of my favorite activities - to try and feel what it was like to be the common man in any period in history. We know what kings and emporers did, for the most part, but what about the common man?

I get to see a glimpse of that every time I leave the wire here in the Stan. I know I mention this a lot, but when you are here it really bends your perspective every moment of the day. Here in Afghanistan I get to see what life was like 1000 years ago, only with cars, AK-47's and television. But I often find myself deep in the mountains where life is very much the same as it has been for a very long time. I once met a man who had two wives - one was 16 and the other was 12. That is an ancient custom that was once common around the world. Also, you see many people using the same modes of transportation that they have for centuries - camels, donkeys, horses - with young boys herding goats and the women covered in burqas. Just some thoughts from the other side of the world. Later bros.

[ryan]

As a history teacher I often plea with my students to get a fuller image/ picture of what shaped history. I try to balance the bad events by often explaining that they were the exception and not the rule. This often taxes my students a little too much, but a few grasp where I am going with the material.

[Josh]

What grade level do you teach again?

[Margot]

Oct 18, 2009 8:27:38 GMT -8 Kirby said:

Basically, we enjoy a good story...drama, comedy, interesting events. Does the mundane day-to-day activities of the common man get recorded in history? Does John Q. Public* ever have groundbreaking philosophical discovery that we never hear about?

My point is that history is limited in this regard.

I find myself wondering about this a lot too. In a lot of ways I see scripture as a conglomoration of stories about the "every day" kind of person. But I always find myself asking how God and His truths looked from the perspective of a serf or pilgrim or the wife of some fisherman from a long time ago. We only get such a basic overview of the differences of the people who knew God back in history, but I know their day to day struggles must have been exactly like mine: constantly wanting to take back control of their lives, wondering what their part is in the Bigger Plan; trying to make it through all the mundane parts of the day.
I've always enjoyed the story about Susanna Wesley, born 1669, (mother of John and Charles.) Suppposedly she had 19 kids and the only way she could get a moment alone with God was to sit in the kitchen of her little home with her apron thrown up over her head. When the kids saw her doing that they supposedly knew it was the signal of her time in prayer and they left her alone.
--In the 1990's, when my kids were preschoolers and they and their friends were running in and out of our little kitchen in the Silicon Valley---well, let's just say it was pretty easy to relate.

[rbbailey]

I made a list of movies for my students to watch on their own time about mid to late American history. There were something like 20 movies. After I finished the list, I realized that all but 3 or 4 of the movies were specifically about war.

But then, war is when stuff happens. The results of war are often the turning points in history. Also, as Kirby said, it's the drama factor.

[Josh]

Yeah, even my home movie selection is largely weighted in the war movie direction.

So, on this topic, I just finished reading Justinian's Flea (about the last days of the Roman empire) and it was good but seriously, I got so tired of intrigue after intrigue, scandal, pogram, tragedy, etc... I mean, the author never focused in on anyone who could be called noble. I came away weary.

[rbbailey]

So... I don't get it, you were reading about ancient history, or you were reading political current events? ....ouch....

[Josh]

One might wonder, huh?

But actually, I had the opposite thought.

I'd have to say that the moral climate we've grown up in is so much better than that of the ancient world or medieval world.

[ryan]

Of course the present would seem more "moral" than the past. Historians focus on the bad stuff. When some historian writes about this period of time in the distant future. They will comment on our wars, intrigue and corruption. Ironically, we have the opposite impression of the not so distant past - which often seems to be nearly perfect or charmed.

[Josh]

I dunno.

I'd strongly argue that the things that politicians, emperors, and generals got away with in the Roman Empire were far worse than the moral indiscretions of our Presidents and politicians or most other world leaders today.

I mean, for instance, when was the last time you heard of a President having his own family members murdered?

Almost all Americans were up in arms about Nixon's lies, but that's sweating the small stuff compared to Nero, Caesar Augutus, or even the "Christian" emperors like Justinian.

[ryan]

Good point, but they were never under the scrutiny of the Media. That said, when the people didn't like what a Roman emperor was doing the military usually too them out. The tenure rate amongst these individuals was pretty short.

[rbbailey]

If the real purpose of learning history is to learn from the mistakes of others, then it stands to reason that most of what we should be learning about in history is the bad stuff.

[Josh]

The tenure rate amongst these individuals was pretty short.

Yes, for the worst.

But even the "best" emperors who reigned a long time like Augustus or Marcus Aurelius did things we couldn't even imagine our government doing.

[Josh]

Btw, it's good to see you around again, ryan!!! Enjoying the Thanksgiving break still or where you back to work today?