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Post by moritz on Nov 6, 2008 6:30:18 GMT -8
Conversely, however, I've been pretty surprised in listening to NPR how many folks in other countries were convinced that Obama would not/ could not win becuase of racial prejudice, and therefor, how surprised they were at his election. Apparently they've been more cynical about the racial climate of the U.S. than I tend to be. One guy interviewed predicted that if elected, Obama would be taken out by the CIA! Still, I don't profess to have much of a pulse on that anway. This CIA suspicion is just one more example of how people think the USA are evil. I for one don't believe that for a second. I'm afraid though that a redneck will try to kill him. Unfortunately there's always a nutter with a gun. I've read an interview with an imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and how he said he would make sure Obama won't be president for a long time... whatever that means. To go back to your observation: apparently America is less racist then its image. And that sure is a very good thing that makes me really happy. However, we may not be blinded by this success either. CNN pointed out that in the South Obama scored less than Kerry, Gore and the democratic senators that were elected yesterday. They directly linked this to potential racism. Also, I too am a bit leary of all the high expectations put upon him- especially by folks in other countries. -I do think a more positive image abroad is much to be desired, I just hope not at too high a cost. What do you mean by this? What do you think are the expectations? And what is the cost you fear? -And yeah, I'm glad it's over. And I'm not planning on revealing how I voted (no slips from me ) I think I have a pretty good idea of who you voted anyway
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Post by Josh on Nov 6, 2008 22:50:28 GMT -8
This comment made me think of an interesting tangent. Looking at the blue states/ red states on the map of the election, I thought it was really ironic how things have changed. In the eastern US most of the south was red (republican) and most of the north was blue (democrat). That's quite a change since from the beginning of the republican party in Abraham Lincoln's day up until about two decades ago (I think, don't quote me exactly here) it was exactly the opposite. It used to be the democrats who were more prone to "potential racism".
I can't say exactly, but I think most southern republicans were voting for McCain due to their moral conservatism rather than not voting for Obama because of racism.
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Post by moritz on Nov 7, 2008 1:27:21 GMT -8
That's quite a change since from the beginning of the republican party in Abraham Lincoln's day up until about two decades ago (I think, don't quote me exactly here) it was exactly the opposite. It used to be the democrats who were more prone to "potential racism". That's almost entirely right. The dominance of the Democratic Party in the "Solid South" was mainly due to the fact that the Republicans granted more rights to black people in the time of the reconstruction. Racism was clearly the main factor. The Democratic Party supported the Jim Crow Segregation and was the strongest political force in the south until their leaders turned towards the Civil Rights movement. It started with Truman and ended with LBJ. When LBJ was elected, almost the entire electoral map was blue, except for Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina (and Arizona, where Johnson's opponent Barry Goldwater was from. That doesn't count ). That was the turning point. Nixon won the South entirely, wooing conservatives and segregationists with his "Southern Strategy". Jimmy Carter gave the Democrats a short comeback in 76, but the real turning point was in 64. As you've said before: In matters of racism the Democratic Party is a prime example of how a party can overcome a long held political position and change for the better. The interesting question now is: quo vadis GOP? I can't say exactly, but I think most southern republicans were voting for McCain due to their moral conservatism rather than not voting for Obama because of racism. ? Well, this can certainly be said for the Republicans*. But what about the voters who supported Kerry and Gore? What other reason would they have to switch? Why did the white democratic Senators get more % in the south than Obama? Sure, there might be other reasons. But the suspicion remains. *that doesn't mean there aren't racists among the Republicans. Racists like the Ku Klux Klan are totally right winged. They are not only against Blacks and Jews but also homosexuals and liberals. Since the Democratic Party has a more liberal agenda than the Republicans, it is safe to argue that such people vote Republicans. One could also assume that they don't vote at all. But the fact that not voting is always voting for the opposite party indirectly, it seems clear that such radical people won't just sit and watch how a party they despise takes the cake. What can be said for sure is that a Republican party stalwart, even if he happens to be racist, wouldn't have voted a white Democrat anyway.
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Post by michelle on Nov 10, 2008 22:08:02 GMT -8
Well, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't thrilled with the outcome of the election...I'm even glad that Democrats didn't get the filibuster proof senate...(Robin, am I redeemed in your eyes at all if I tell you I voted for Gordon Smith?? One thing that I have loved seeing is such excitement towards our country again. I know that Obama has a long row to hoe and has really high expectations of him. I doubt he will be able to live up to them because I think the bar is too high for anyone. I saw on Meet the Press that post election 67% of our nation is optimistic and 59% is EXCITED. When was the last time that was being said by Americans? This will probably be short lived, but for the first time that I recollect, there was massive celebrating in the streets all over the world (you can you tube "portland obama celebration" and hear me singing the National Anthem ) for our election. That's CRAZY to me. I've seen countries celebrate when someone they want elected gets elected, but it seems we've hardly had that kind of enthusiasm for a president. Now some people might think it's worship like, but I hardly think that is the case. I think a lot of people see this as a turning point in American history and I am so excited to be a part of it and to see the results of the hard civil rights work that was done by previous generations.
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Post by marcus on Nov 10, 2008 23:55:47 GMT -8
I really, really want to get Robin and Michelle together in a small locked room, then spend three hours convincing them that 1) politics don't matter, that 2) humans are terrible leaders, and that 3) we need not look to politics for a savior, since ours came two thousand years ago. If successful, they would walk away seeing eye to eye and realize that they are both Christians, and therefore agree on every social and moral issue.
If it failed, it would still make for three super entertaining hours. Of course, there's also the chance that one of them would convert me instead. But I assume that I'd probably win the stubbornness contest.
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Post by Margot on Nov 11, 2008 0:34:07 GMT -8
Marcus--Cool avatar. Why don't I ever find anything that interesting when I am looking for something that re-pre-sents??!! As for putting RobElle together in a small locked room...After spending the past few months getting to know them through their comments on the boards, I've got a feeling that when all is said and done they've got more in common than meets the eye
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Post by robin on Nov 11, 2008 8:08:37 GMT -8
Michelle, I can assure you. You don't need to seek redemption in my eyes. I don't think less of you or anyone else for your vote. By the way, I also voted for Gordon smith, but very reluctantly.
Marcus,
Well as you know, you don't need to look very far if you want to discuss this further. I do live across the street from you, and I would certainly love to have this conversation.
Robin
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Post by marcus on Nov 11, 2008 12:03:47 GMT -8
Yeah, but we need Michelle too. Way more fun.
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Post by michelle on Nov 11, 2008 17:17:57 GMT -8
I really, really want to get Robin and Michelle together in a small locked room, then spend three hours convincing them that 1) politics don't matter, that 2) humans are terrible leaders, and that 3) we need not look to politics for a savior, since ours came two thousand years ago. If successful, they would walk away seeing eye to eye and realize that they are both Christians, and therefore agree on every social and moral issue. If it failed, it would still make for three super entertaining hours. Of course, there's also the chance that one of them would convert me instead. But I assume that I'd probably win the stubbornness contest. Woah...hold the phone. Marcus - I think I've posted 4 times on something political and didn't ever really get involved in a major political discussion. How am I getting lumped into the needing to come eye to eye with someone on something policital? I think your definition of success is way different than mine. To me success would be that we can look at each other, say "I see your points and I respectfully disagree with you", give each other a hug and say "I love you my Christian brother/sister". How hard is it to love someone who agrees with everything one thinks or says? It's a piece of cake. A variation of Luke 6:32 might read "If you love those who always agree with you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those that always agree with them" And what makes you think I need to be convinced of anything? Politics don't matter to who? You? God? Really, who are you to tell someone what matters to them and what doesn't? IMO, I believe everyone is allowed to make that decision for him/herself. Does it matter in the Kingdom of God? Probably not. But, through our political differences Robin and I (and everyone else) get a chance to demonstrate that our Christian bond is stronger than our political ties. I think that everyone in our church would tell you that Robin and I have never treated each other differently because we have different views. In fact, we've never even had a discussion at length regarding politics. And I have an immense amount of respect for Robin and the passion and depth for which he believes the things he does. In fact, I probably have more respect for him now than I did before this election regardless of the fact that I may not always agree with him. So in my eyes, if it has done nothing else, it has allowed me to see some traits of Robin that I hadn't seen before. 2) humans are terrible leaders Does that mean that you are saying no human can be a good leader? I think you are telling God that either He can't lead (we are created in His image, no??) or you agree that there are some good leaders. Moses, Deborah, Joshua (Biblical and Coles, of course ), Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, Jr., Harriet Tubman, just to name a few. Sure, they all have their flaws and are certainly as fallable as any other human being, but "terrible leaders"? You would not be able to convince me of that. 3) we need not look to politics for a savior, since ours came two thousand years ago. I know I have never said that we should or that I do look to politics for a savior and I'm pretty sure I've not heard anyone else say that. I would never acknowledge any human being as a savior, but I'd like you to tell me what is wrong with being enthusiastic about the person that will become the leader of our country? I assure you Marcus, one of the hardest fights you will ever have is to try to convince me of anything that you say you are going to convince me of. I guarantee that I would win that stubborn contest. Just ask Rose! And I'm afraid you would be highly disappointed at the entertainment value because all I would do is sit there quietly and tune all of the conversation out. There would be no attempt to convert you to anything because just like Robin and I, you are allowed to believe what you want and I would not try to convice you that you need to believe the same things I do.
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Post by michelle on Nov 11, 2008 17:19:20 GMT -8
Marcus--Cool avatar. Why don't I ever find anything that interesting when I am looking for something that re-pre-sents??!! As for putting RobElle together in a small locked room...After spending the past few months getting to know them through their comments on the boards, I've got a feeling that when all is said and done they've got more in common than meets the eye RobElle??? Oh boy!! Thanks!!!
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Post by michelle on Nov 11, 2008 17:20:17 GMT -8
Michelle, I can assure you. You don't need to seek redemption in my eyes. I don't think less of you or anyone else for your vote. By the way, I also voted for Gordon smith, but very reluctantly. I know, that's why the smiley!
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Post by marcus on Nov 11, 2008 17:25:54 GMT -8
Tuesday Morning Oregonian Headline:
"ROBELLE: THE NEW ODD COUPLE DENOUNCE POLITICS AND BECOME SUPERHERO DUO, IMMEDIATELY SAVE THREE BABY PANDAS FROM PRO-CHOICE LOGGERS"
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Post by rose on Nov 11, 2008 20:58:31 GMT -8
Michelle wrote:
Marcus - give up man - if you know what's good for you! Just walk across the street, do what you can about Robin, and leave it at that.
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Post by marcus on Nov 11, 2008 23:23:08 GMT -8
I really, really want to get Robin and Michelle together in a small locked room, then spend three hours convincing them that 1) politics don't matter, that 2) humans are terrible leaders, and that 3) we need not look to politics for a savior, since ours came two thousand years ago. If successful, they would walk away seeing eye to eye and realize that they are both Christians, and therefore agree on every social and moral issue. If it failed, it would still make for three super entertaining hours. Of course, there's also the chance that one of them would convert me instead. But I assume that I'd probably win the stubbornness contest. Woah...hold the phone. Marcus - I think I've posted 4 times on something political and didn't ever really get involved in a major political discussion. How am I getting lumped into the needing to come eye to eye with someone on something policital? I assure you Marcus, one of the hardest fights you will ever have is to try to convince me of anything that you say you are going to convince me of. I guarantee that I would win that stubborn contest. Just ask Rose! And I'm afraid you would be highly disappointed at the entertainment value because all I would do is sit there quietly and tune all of the conversation out. There would be no attempt to convert you to anything because just like Robin and I, you are allowed to believe what you want and I would not try to convice you that you need to believe the same things I do. I just saw this quote on the last page. I'm really sorry, I was totally just using you and Robin as examples of people who voted for each candidate, because I am pretty sure you supported Obama and he supported McCain. Neither of you have ever given me any reason to think that you are close-minded jerks or anything - quite the opposite, I think you guys are cool - or I never would have made that comment with your names. "Put a red and a blue supporter in a small room..." is as far as I meant to take that. Both of you seemed pretty offended, and I apologize - I have nothing but respect for you both. Sometimes I'm dead serious and sometimes I'm being tongue in cheek. I'm not very good at being clear.
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Post by christopher on Nov 12, 2008 21:04:45 GMT -8
Michelle wrote: So then...you spit in each other's lunch when the other's not looking every week? Kidding
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Post by robin on Nov 13, 2008 8:29:28 GMT -8
Woah...hold the phone. Marcus - I think I've posted 4 times on something political and didn't ever really get involved in a major political discussion. How am I getting lumped into the needing to come eye to eye with someone on something policital? I assure you Marcus, one of the hardest fights you will ever have is to try to convince me of anything that you say you are going to convince me of. I guarantee that I would win that stubborn contest. Just ask Rose! And I'm afraid you would be highly disappointed at the entertainment value because all I would do is sit there quietly and tune all of the conversation out. There would be no attempt to convert you to anything because just like Robin and I, you are allowed to believe what you want and I would not try to convice you that you need to believe the same things I do. I just saw this quote on the last page. I'm really sorry, I was totally just using you and Robin as examples of people who voted for each candidate, because I am pretty sure you supported Obama and he supported McCain. Neither of you have ever given me any reason to think that you are close-minded jerks or anything - quite the opposite, I think you guys are cool - or I never would have made that comment with your names. "Put a red and a blue supporter in a small room..." is as far as I meant to take that. Both of you seemed pretty offended, and I apologize - I have nothing but respect for you both. Sometimes I'm dead serious and sometimes I'm being tongue in cheek. I'm not very good at being clear. Marcus, I can assure you, I was not offended. Far from it. I hope my response did not leave that impression. I was actually being honest when I said "I would love to have that conversation". By the way if you ever do offend me I will have the neighbor kids egg your house. So watch out .
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Post by marcus on Nov 13, 2008 15:39:45 GMT -8
Your little angels? Egg a house? I wouldn't believe it if I saw it with my own eyes!
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