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Post by moritz on Aug 29, 2008 7:26:50 GMT -8
I've been observing this years campaign again from a safe distance and it always amazes me the way Americans make a show out of politics. All this banner waving, all this organized "yes, we can, yes we can". All the organized standing ovations (over and over again). All the pathos in the speeches like "I'll follow him to the gates of hell" (McCain), etc.. Every camera move shows a maniacly smiling follower with a slogan on a cardboard. All the spindoctoring.... WHO ARE THEY TRYING TO FOOL?  ? What is all the masquerade for? Who is buying that? It seems like Americans have a liability to epic drama. It seems as if there were the die-hard Democrates, the die-hard Republicans and the best showmaster takes the cake (read: the undecided voters=swing states=victory). Hollywood everywhere you look. Just take the recent Democratic Convention. Seriously, I don't even want to go into specific political issues. It's just that I get the impression that this isn't about substance but about cladding. I've watched Obamas acceptance speech this morning and although it was a nice speech, the entire show was an insult of my intelligence. The same goes for everything I've seen of McCain so far. I wonder if this fondness for the big show is something Americans imbibe with the breast milk. Maybe this is why they have such difficulties realizing the illogicalness of religion. Christianity is epic Drama too. With heros, villains and a lot of fancy action that doesn't make sense in real life. But the constant presence of the big show seems to have blurred the American vision. They seem to be unable to tell the fact from the fancy. It's high time to look behind the scenes. Wake up. YES YOU CAN!  |
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Post by christopher on Aug 29, 2008 20:26:28 GMT -8
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Post by Josh on Aug 29, 2008 22:23:00 GMT -8
It's been months since I've had a belly laugh of that magnitude.
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Post by rose on Aug 29, 2008 22:29:01 GMT -8
You rock, Chris! ;D ;D ;D
**BTW, we are sitting on the couch passing the laptop back and forth!**
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Post by Josh on Aug 29, 2008 23:28:03 GMT -8
I share some of your cynicism about politics, but I think it's a complete poverty to not see life as an epic drama.
There's been a whole lot of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in Europe over the last 100 years from what I can gather. The answer to failed dreams and epic aspirations isn't to stop seeing life as a drama- cynicism for cynicism's sake. If it is, then the worst European blights on human history, from fuhrer to power hungry pope to party boss, were successful after all.
Really? Likening the Christian drama to the vagaries of politics?
1 Corinthians 2:6-10
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"— but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
Drama (I usually call it the Story) is at the heart of the confidence I have in faith in Christ. The Story is it's own apologetic argument to me because it rings so true and makes all the alternatives so hollow.
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Post by moritz on Sept 1, 2008 0:59:31 GMT -8
I share some of your cynicism about politics, but I think it's a complete poverty to not see life as an epic drama. This is nothing but meaningless subjectivity on your part. But it's your right. I'm wondering though: what do you know about it? It seems to me you've never really checked out the other worldview, so what do you know about the riches or poverties of realism? There's been a whole lot of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in Europe over the last 100 years from what I can gather. The answer to failed dreams and epic aspirations isn't to stop seeing life as a drama- cynicism for cynicism's sake. If it is, then the worst European blights on human history, from fuhrer to power hungry pope to party boss, were successful after all. Or we could turn the tables and diagnose that Europe has quite a lead over the United States in terms of experience. It would be foolish not to learn the lesson, disenchanting as it might be. Drama (I usually call it the Story) is at the heart of the confidence I have in faith in Christ. The Story is it's own apologetic argument to me because it rings so true and makes all the alternatives so hollow. Thank you Josh, you are giving force to my point: I think the story rings so true to you because of your socio-cultural background. This socio-cultural background, as I pointed out, apparently has such a high affinity towards show, drama and facade, that even the most grotesque claims can ring true to a healthy man. |
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Post by Josh on Sept 1, 2008 8:23:01 GMT -8
"meaningless subjectivity" belies your perspective. this might be a serious difference between our approach to epistemology. to me the subjective has a place at the table (though within bounds), you say it doesn't (although I doubt that's true because a big part of your rejection of Christianity was your experiences, or lack of them)
I know you think I've never really checked out the other worldview (atheism), and you're right if you're talking about living in that worldview for long stretches of time, but don't underestimate how often I have put that hat on. I've spent considerable amounts of time in my life putting the hat on/ taking it off.
I also don't appreciate this being couched as drama vs. realism. To me the very fabric of the universe is dramatic, so I'd call my perspective realism too.
Don't get me wrong. I'm sure European sensibilities have advantages over American. But it would be a travesty that the continent that brought us Beowulf and Arthur and Robin Hood and St. Patrick and St. Francis has now no place for seeing life as epic drama, instead settling into cynicism couched under the title "realism". Come on even Nietsczhe was dramatic.
It's possible we're arguing past each other here somewhat?
I don't think it rings true because of my background so much as because I'm human. It's built into humans in general. The imagery and particulars of the drama may be relative, but the drama is universal except for those who throw out the baby with the bathwater.
The drama centers on the fact that life has meaning, that the stakes are high, that we are all in a titanic struggle, that the things we do matter, that there are ideas worth dying for, etc...
BTW, grotesque in English might have a different ring than in German. I think perhaps it means "strange" in German, whereas in English it comes across more as "horrific".
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Post by moritz on Sept 1, 2008 9:41:59 GMT -8
to me the subjective has a place at the table (though within bounds), you say it doesn't No, I'm not saying the subjective has NO place. But the subjective isn't the most reliable source of truth, wouldn't you agree? In the present case you find "not seing life as epic drama" to be complete poverty. Well, that's your opinion. But you'll agree that this opinion doesn't mean that I'm wrong. I know you think I've never really checked out the other worldview (atheism), and you're right if you're talking about living in that worldview for long stretches of time, but don't underestimate how often I have put that hat on. I've spent considerable amounts of time in my life putting the hat on/ taking it off. Atheism isn't a hat you can put on or take off. Neither is theism. I think you'll agree that Christianity is something one has to grow in. You can't fully understand it on the first day of your new found faith. You have to study it, experience it, chew on it and someday, not seldom after many years, you finally understand it. And the same goes for atheism. I've spent years talking to God even when I already considered myself an atheist. But if you really are an atheist, you don't talk to God, if you know what I mean. It wasn't before I fully emancipated from God that I found the joy of atheism. I found love, and I found peace and even if you don't believe me, it's there. Atheism doesn't take away you're awe. It neither makes you bitter nor cynical. If one happens to be cynical, it may well be because of other reasons. I've been cynical in some aspects of life long before I turned atheist. I think you don't know much about atheism, to be quite frankly. This isn't meant as a criticism, just as an observation. Did you see Good Will Hunting? There's this dialogue between Will and his mentor (or whatever Robin Williams was starring as) that goes like this: "So if I asked you about art, you'd probably give me the skinny on every art book ever written. Michelangelo, you know a lot about him. Life's work, political aspirations, him and the pope, sexual orientations, the whole works, right? But I'll bet you can't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never actually stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling; seen that." I could say the same about you and atheism. (You see, I love drama too. But I don't confuse it with reality.) I also don't appreciate this being couched as drama vs. realism. To me the very fabric of the universe is dramatic, so I'd call my perspective realism too. Maybe we are indeed talking past each other. The point of this thread is, that we both see the same thing but while I say: "balloney!" you say: "hallelujah!" I'm asking myself, why is this? How can it be that what sounds bizarre to me rings true to you? Then I see the US campaign and it is all a big show. Total fakery. Look at Hillary Clinton. I don't know if you've noticed, but everytime she enters the stage, she is maniacly grinning and then she points her finger at somebody in the crowd and twinkles as if she had spotted an old friend. She does this all the time. Somebody must have told her this looks cool or something. Maybe somebody really analyzed what gestures go down well and she adopted this one. This too, looks totally bizarre to me. I find myself thinking: who is she trying to impress with this? It is such obvious acting... But then I realize: She is fooling millions with this! There are millions who aren't really interested in the political programm and substance, but in the show. If you took away the show, if you compared the democratic convention to the last convention of the CDU (the leading party in Germany), you would certainly lose the interest of the crowd. Political reality is often dull. It doesn't sell. But political reality is what counts. What I'm getting at? Well, I already said all this. But I can only repeat: maybe the bizarre claims of Christianity ring true to you, because you are used to the show. Because it fits into the socio-cultural context. Children watch Superman fly and then they jump off their bunk beds (or from the balcony) because they think they can fly. Because they can't separate fiction from reality. Children then learn from their experience that they can't fly. Maybe you are so interwoven in Christianity, maybe this is why it sounds reasonable to you. And maybe you are so blinded by the show, that an atheist reality can only look dull to you. BTW, grotesque in English might have a different ring than in German. I think perhaps it means "strange" in German, whereas in English it comes across more as "horrific". Oh dear.... thanks for letting me know. How does bizarre sound? Would that be a better choice? |
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Post by Josh on Sept 1, 2008 19:24:23 GMT -8
Yeah, that's better. The first couple times you used the word grotesque it seemed a little demeaning but then I figured you must be using it in what is probably the original sense of the word. Hey Mo, I've got no quibbles with your last post. Thanks for your perspective on all this. The biggest thing that bothered me personally about your original post is that to me political drama is just a pale, pathetic mimic of the real human drama... and of the Christian drama (which I see as one and the same). Seeing you liken political drama to the Christian story bothers me because to me there are almost completely different in their authenticity. And I just don't see the link between the two- except that anything that ever happens to be good in political drama (once in a blue moon) is just an overlap from the real human drama that I believe we are all caught up in. BTW, for the record, there is a kind of "Christianese" drama that makes me cringe too. There's a lot of fakery and towing the party line among Christians as well, though I've learned to be cautious at pointing the finger too hastily. I feel I'm rambling a bit now. Anyway... I'm off. First day with students tomorrow!!   ;D |
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Post by christopher on Sept 2, 2008 16:37:00 GMT -8
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Post by moritz on Sept 3, 2008 0:55:41 GMT -8
excellent, I'm gonna take over the world! MUHAHAHA |
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Post by christopher on Sept 3, 2008 11:49:08 GMT -8
Ok, I have a possible campaign slogan...
"Free US from SNAFU, get the tattoo!!" ;D
Or how about...
"MO money, MO money, MO money".
Or...
"Mo Fo Sho"
Or...
"Puttin' on the Mo-Ritz"
Ok, I'll stop.
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Post by moritz on Sept 3, 2008 14:10:51 GMT -8
Ok, I have a possible campaign slogan... "Free US from SNAFU, get the tattoo!!" ;D Or how about... "MO money, MO money, MO money". Or... "Mo Fo Sho" Or... "Puttin' on the Mo-Ritz" Ok, I'll stop. You're hired, Mister! ;D |
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Post by Josh on Sept 3, 2008 19:55:27 GMT -8
I didn't know you were so popular among the older ladies, mo. You've definitely got Florida's vote as least then. Oh, and after watching good chunks of both conventions, I'm pretty much in Mo's camp on American politics*. About the only thing that's holding my interest at this point is the novelty of the realization that we'll be seeing either the first African American President or the first female V.P. (and likely the first female President, since the average life-span for males in the US is, what, 76?) *But I'm not giving any ground on his shameless jump from that to other conclusions |
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Post by moritz on Sept 4, 2008 2:42:33 GMT -8
I didn't know you were so popular among the older ladies, mo. You've definitely got Florida's vote as least then. Florida makes all the difference as we know since the election of 2000. |
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Post by robin on Sept 4, 2008 7:41:45 GMT -8
Josh Wrote,
I don't understand this criticism of American politics. Are you (Josh and Mo) assuming that European style politics is any better? Keep in mind that only a month ago 200,000 swooning Germans were drooling all over themselves at the site of Barak Obama, AKA the Savior. By the way, we should all be very nervous any time we see 200,000 Germans rallying emphatically around a political leader. We all know what happened last time. The fact that Americans get so excited about the political process is a sign that we believe that our votes really can effect change. There are real and important differences between our two parties, and those are worth fighting for, and getting exited about.
By the way, did anyone watch Governor Palin last night? She was absolutely amazing! Liberals be ware! Your leader was just exposed for the empty suit he is. ;D
Robin
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Post by moritz on Sept 4, 2008 8:22:33 GMT -8
I don't understand this criticism of American politics. Are you (Josh and Mo) assuming that European style politics is any better? Keep in mind that only a month ago 200,000 swooning Germans were drooling all over themselves at the site of Barak Obama, AKA the Savior. By the way, we should all be very nervous any time we see 200,000 Germans rallying emphatically around a political leader. We all know what happened last time. The fact that Americans get so excited about the political process is a sign that we believe that our votes really can effect change. There are real and important differences between our two parties, and those are worth fighting for, and getting exited about. By the way, did anyone watch Governor Palin last night? She was absolutely amazing! Liberals be ware! Your leader was just exposed for the empty suit he is. ;D Robin This entire post is probably the most birdbrained thing I've ever read. It reveals ignorance, missinformation, political bias, arrogance, prejudice, naivety, total lack of intellectual substance and a great deal of immaturity. Furthermore it affirms every cliché existing about Americans. And that's no good. |
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? What is all the masquerade for? Who is buying that? It seems like Americans have a liability to epic drama. It seems as if there were the die-hard Democrates, the die-hard Republicans and the best showmaster takes the cake (read: the undecided voters=swing states=victory). Hollywood everywhere you look. 
;D 