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Post by nathaniel on Nov 3, 2008 21:55:10 GMT -8
sorry it took me a second to get back on this. I was out of town on work/vacation. I also hadn't heard about the story and had no idea who Rashid Khalidi was. The first report I heard on the story was in a little diner in Scottsdale last thursday. Unfortunately I can't find the whole broadcast. This is all I could find. . The whole of the report was a little more indepth, but I couldn't dig it up. In regards to whether or not the LA Times should show the tape? Apparently they made an agreement w/ the source of the tape that they would keep it confidential, so I think the ethics of journalism would say no they shouldn't release the tape. As far as Rashid Khalidi here is a link about him. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashid_Khalidi. from everything I have heard/read about him he is not the person you described ("horrible", "anti-semitic", "racist"). He may be a critic of the policies surrounding Israel, but that doesn't make him an anti-semite. And, if he were, I haven't heard any evidence that Obama praised or endorsed Khalidi's views. I've actually heard the contrary, that Obama disagrees w/ his postitions regarding Israel. If Obama did say something anti-semitic, used a racial slur, or endorsed comments of this kind I would have serious doubts about him. But I see no evidence for this. I don't know if this was the kind of consistency you were looking for. I really am trying to be as objective as possible about all this. These unfortunately, though, are the types of stories and tactics that continually drive me away from the republican party. You may not believe this but, I actually drove on the "right" side of the road as recently as a year ago, but these ways of engaging in politics (as well as the results of republican policy) have driven me away from the party. IMO, the way you fight, in many cases, can be as important as what your fighting for. I also didn't find evidence, through wikipedia or otherwise, of Khalidi being a member of the PLO. I may be wrong though. PS I didn't know who David Duke was before this, but here's a wikipedia link. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke. It seems to me that there is a stark contrast between the two biographies.
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Post by moritz on Nov 4, 2008 2:24:37 GMT -8
Guys, the day has come. Don't forget to vote!
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Post by robin on Nov 4, 2008 8:08:10 GMT -8
This is why it is important that the LA time release the tape. We could stop speculating and see for ourselves. By the way, the LA Time could be saying this in order to protect Obama. IT was never mention in the original article.
As for Rashid Khalidi, he was considered an activist, and spokesman for the PLO. He often referred to Yasser Afafat, and the PLO as "we". This all took place at the time when the PLO was considered a terrorist organization. The fact is Obama's back ground is filled with questionable associations like Rashid Khalidi, Rev. Wright, Bill Ayes, and Father Phlager. You can tell allot about a man, by the company he keeps.
Robin
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Post by Margot on Nov 4, 2008 9:25:28 GMT -8
The fact is Obama's back ground is filled with questionable associations like Rashid Khalidi, Rev. Wright, Bill Ayes, and Father Phlager. I would agree with this.
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Post by Margot on Nov 4, 2008 9:35:32 GMT -8
And I also agree with this. I really am trying to be as objective as possible about all this. These unfortunately, though, are the types of stories and tactics that continually drive me away from the republican party. You may not believe this but, I actually drove on the "right" side of the road as recently as a year ago, but these ways of engaging in politics (as well as the results of republican policy) have driven me away from the party. IMO, the way you fight, in many cases, can be as important as what your fighting for. Happy (Final ) Voting Day, everyone. Was it already mentioned on this thread why Christians should always vote Democratic? Because, Jesus didn't enter the city on an elephant... I'm sorry. This joke was so bad I was powerless to resist it, but at least I had the self-control to save it to the end. (Note to self: Must look into more about self control...)
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Post by Josh on Nov 4, 2008 13:14:34 GMT -8
Guess you'll have to come and hear what Brian has to say about it this Sunday, then.
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Post by Josh on Nov 4, 2008 22:42:07 GMT -8
OK, I'll be the first to break the ice... {gently}:
Whew... it's over (Chris, where's a sweaty smiley face for a moment like this?)
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Post by moritz on Nov 5, 2008 11:29:23 GMT -8
Guys, I can't believe it's really over. I'm totally stoked. This result is something incredible. Despite all the polls in the run-up to the election, I didn't dare to dream that Obama would really win. Already his nomination was a huge surprise. Barack Obama? Barack who? You can shoot me to hell, but if you had asked me a couple of months ago if a black man had the chance to be American president I would have said "No way. Not yet. There is still too much latent racism." If you had asked me if a man with a foreign, even partly Arab name like Barack Hussein Obama could ever be American president, I would have answered "certainly not in a time, when the Muslim world seems to be the most imminent threat to the USA." But he has done it. He has won this election against all odds. I know that some or even many of you are disappointed about this. But there is a Spanish saying that goes like "no hay mal que por bien no venga". This means everything has a good side too. So I would like to cheer you up and point you at an indisputable advantage of Obama's election. We can discuss all we like about what measure would be best for what problem. We can discuss whether McCain had the better plan. But there is something nobody can deny and this is something that should fill the heart of every American with pride: This unique man is already restoring the world's respect for America! There is no chance that the election of John McCain, regardless of all his qualities, could have had this effect. Not in a hundret years. The message Obama and the American people (through his election) are sending out to the world is absolutely wonderful. I've never seen such a thing. Many of you might not be aware of how shattered America's image is/was. So you have no idea how much America will benefit from its vote for change. McCain was a good candidate and would have been a good president. But his "country first" message and his "pitbull with lipstick" were sending out that America would remain what people all over the world learned to hate in the last eight years: A unilateral, violent, ignorant, disrespectful rampaging bully. Let me tell you about it. The Bush administration managed to destroy America's status almost entirely. They literally went from hero to zero. Siding with America in the last 5 years has been political suicide. American backpackers would deny their nationality (pretending to be Canadiens). I've heard Americans apologize for their government and everything. Guys, I'm not saying this to offend and I'm sure some of you couldn't care less about Americas image abroad. But anti-Americanism has grown so much, I've heard people from all over the world say that America is the real enemy of all that's just, that the American people deserved 9/11. Seriously. Germans have adimred America ever since the end of WWII. But the unilateral ways of Bush, the disrespect of his administration, the my-way-or-highway-politics against international law,... all this turned the mood around. The list could go on forever. Gee I remember how our English teacher made us correct Bush's grammar errors in class. I don't mean to discredit Bush's work. I know the world is complicated and I understand many of his actions even though I disapprove. But let's face it: In a time of international entanglement, of new challenges, America has lost it's leadership. Hardly anyone was looking up to the USA anymore. Until today. The result of this election is balsam for all of us who have grown cynical and indifferent. The people of the USA have chosen the generational change Colin Powell called for. They have chosen a different political style. Where McCain tried the old trick of feeding people's anxiety by linking Obama to terrorists, Obama stayed calm. John McCain is a hero, but his time is over. His election, even if he really differed from Bush, wouldn't have meant anything. Obama reaches the youth, the future of America. And he reaches the allies America needs badly in a time where conflicts with Russia, Iran and Pakistan (in addition to Iraq, Afghanistan and North Corea) are in sight. Nobody is expecting miracles. He will make mistakes. He will be criticized. There will be disenchantment. But the decisive thing is that the American dream is back. That America is bethinking itself and returning to the path that brought them glory and the respect and admiration of the world. AMEN
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Post by robin on Nov 5, 2008 13:09:34 GMT -8
Sorry folks, I was doing some editing and deleted this post, so I needed to re-post it, and now its out of place.
I'm relieved that its over. I'm also thrilled that democrats did not reach the 60 senate seats needed to bypass filibusters. Perhaps that is the only thing that will protect us from the extreme liberal agenda of Pelosi, Reid, and Obama.
For those who supported Obama, (Nate, Michelle, Sarah, or anyone else) congratulations. I pray that America will be more forgiving of this president, when he has to make tough decisions, then we have been of President Bush. I'm not going to hide the fact that I'm disappointed, but Obama is our president and for the next four years he will need our prayers. I also think this country owes a dept of gratitude to President Bush for his leadership, and for keeping us safe for the last eight years. In the long run, I think history will vindicate him, and he will be remembered fondly for his courage in the face of fierce opposition, at home and abroad.
As for John McCain, it was truly sad to see him give his concession speech. He was faced with perhaps the most daunting of tasks that any presidential hopeful could face. Given the unpopularity of President bush, the war, and financial crisis, the fact that McCain was competitive goes to show that the American people recognize him as a patriot, and one worthy of the office of President. However it seems that there was too much to overcome, and in the end people voted for change rather than leadership. It is amazing to me that all of the exit polls indicated that people believed that McCain was the most qualified, but unfortunately that did not translate into votes.
Now the rubber meets the road for Obama. No more flowery speeches about change and hope. Obama has a mandate, and no longer can blame Republicans and Bush when things are going bad. With majorities in the senate and house, we will soon find out if Obama is the man he said he was, or the man his record indicates that he is. Both seem a bit scary to me.
Robin
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Post by Margot on Nov 5, 2008 13:24:31 GMT -8
So, this is the way it ends...not with a whimper, but a bang...to malign T.S. Elliot... I have so many mixed thoughts and feelings about this, I hardly know where to begin For one thing, my "quote prompt" doesn't seem to be working, so I will have to quote you all the "old fashioned way," (not that I am that good at doing it anyway, as you know...) 1. Josh, you are right. There is a desperate need for a sweaty/smiling/face. 2. Robin wrote: For those who supported Obama, (Nate, Michelle, Sarah, or anyone else) congratulations. I pray that America will be more forgiving of this president, when he has to make tough decisions, then we have been of President Bush. I'm not going to hide the fact that I'm disappointed, but Obama is our president and for the next four years he will need our prayers. Amen. Thank you for the congrats....I guess...Kind of. I mean I resonate with 99% of this comment, but I still can't figure out if I'm happy he won or not...even though, in the end, he did get my vote. (Oops! Did I just let out a state secret?) For the record, Robin, in spite of my---also mixed--feelings about McCain, I was deeply, deeply moved by his concession speech. I thought it was one of the most generous and gracious speeches I have ever heard in poliltics. Talk about taking the high road and offering the olive branch! I don't think he could have been more genuine and down to earth. Sadly, I found myself wistfully thinking I wish I would have seen a lot more of this side of McCain during the campaign. When people talk from their heart is when I start to relate to them. 3. Interesting reading Mo's European perspective of Obama's victory. Following NPR all morning, I certainly hear many, many other European voices echoing his--as well as those of Americans living abroad. I'm not sure I understand it completely. I feel like I'm watching the unveiling of a rock star, rather than a world leader. Hmmmm.... (BTW Mo, for whatever it's worth, American backpackers were masquerading as Canadians in droves when Paul and I backpacked in Europe in 1985!! So, I'm not sure I'd run to pin that one on Bush ) 4. I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm glad it's over. I'm exhausted and I didn't even DO anything. 5. What comes next? Wish I knew---or maybe I wish I didn't. I support a lot of Obama's thoughts and policies, but there is certainly a "worship-like" feeling around him that I feel uncomfortable with. I get the whole first African American president thing, but it seems so much more than that. It seems more like the hunger of sheep in search of a shepherd. And this shepherd may help them negotiate the National Debt but he ain't gonna save their soul. Do people know that? I guess we're going to find out.
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Post by Josh on Nov 5, 2008 17:34:42 GMT -8
[glow=red,2,300]Nice[/glow] thoughts, guys. Really good reading today! Just a couple of my own observations: -Joy, that our country has indeed finally come so far from the days of slavery and segregation. It was really cool to try and explain to Justus just a tiny bit of how important that change has been. Conversely, however, I've been pretty surprised in listening to NPR how many folks in other countries were convinced that Obama would not/ could not win becuase of racial prejudice, and therefor, how surprised they were at his election. Apparently they've been more cynical about the racial climate of the U.S. than I tend to be. One guy interviewed predicted that if elected, Obama would be taken out by the CIA! Still, I don't profess to have much of a pulse on that anway. -Mixed feelings about Obama on a variety of issues (ones that we've delved into a lot on this and other threads). A big part of me wants to like Obama, but certain things nag at me (especially the abortion thing). Also, I too am a bit leary of all the high expectations put upon him- especially by folks in other countries. -I do think a more positive image abroad is much to be desired, I just hope not at too high a cost. -And yeah, I'm glad it's over. And I'm not planning on revealing how I voted (no slips from me )
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martha
New Member
New Member
Posts: 12
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Post by martha on Nov 5, 2008 18:14:02 GMT -8
I am glad we have a new President - not my choice, but I pray he will lead us to prosperity.
We really need help here and all over the world, today I read an article - some place in Asia pet owners were abandoning their pets because, they could no longer afford to feed them, I was so impacted by this article that, I pray to God for an answer to this crazy economy, I am a big animal lover and I will go with no food myself before my baby cat go hungry.
Maybe this Sunday we can say a short prayer for all the animals of the world to have food to eat this winter. ~
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Post by christopher on Nov 5, 2008 20:03:49 GMT -8
OK, by popular demand Glad it's over... For those waiting for final counts on tight races... For those worried about it... For those who can't stand to watch... For those glad of the results.... For those PO'd about it... For those who are smug about it.... For the winners... And the losers... And not to mention the confused-er's... For those who ain't telling (Josh)... And finally....for Mo who's asked several times... By the way, you can right click and save any of these you'd like for re-use.
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Post by meghan on Nov 5, 2008 21:21:02 GMT -8
Sincerely- can someone remind me what Rev. Wright did to cause so much anger. Was it just the "God damn America" quote?
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Post by Margot on Nov 5, 2008 22:58:05 GMT -8
Thanks Chris !!
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Post by moritz on Nov 6, 2008 0:20:13 GMT -8
And finally....for Mo who's asked several times... excellent!
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Post by moritz on Nov 6, 2008 6:13:49 GMT -8
(BTW Mo, for whatever it's worth, American backpackers were masquerading as Canadians in droves when Paul and I backpacked in Europe in 1985!! So, I'm not sure I'd run to pin that one on Bush ) The particular persons I'm referring to explained their disguise with their embarrassement about Bush. However, you are certainly right that antiamericanism has also existed before Bush, especially around the time of the Vietnam war. I don't know why backpackers would masquerade in the mid eighties though * Anyway, the prestige of the USA suffered considerably under the current administration, let there be no doubt about that. Whether this is fair or not is a totally different question which I will adress in a minute. In this context I just want to emphasize how remarkable it is, that people who are known to be so proud of their country like Americans, deny their nationality. What does that tell us about America's popularity? *what parts of Europe did you travel? Did you like it? 3. Interesting reading Mo's European perspective of Obama's victory. Following NPR all morning, I certainly hear many, many other European voices echoing his--as well as those of Americans living abroad. I'm not sure I understand it completely. I feel like I'm watching the unveiling of a rock star, rather than a world leader. Hmmmm.... It's weird isn't it? And it's hard to explain. I guess there are many reasons why people are so happy. But I'd like to pick up the aspect of image again. Image and truth are two different stories, yet they can have the same impact. Image can even have a stronger impact than truth. I remember the election of Bush in 2000. Back then I didn't really tune in to the campaigns (read: I didn't tune in at all). I was happy Bush won because of my conservative background and because I liked his father (who was president during the time of the German reunification and deserves credits in that matter). But the truth is I didn't really know anything about Bush Junior. I guess the same goes for most Europeans. But Bush's image was quickly constructed. As you all know his presidency began with the Florida scandal. In Europe it remains unclear to the present day whether his victory in Florida was clean or not (with a clear emphasis on the suspicion that it wasn't clean and that either way, Florida should have voted again). Once someone new is stepping on the international scene, the media are quick to portray this person. In the case of Bush, for whatever reason, the portray was unanimously devastating: A dry alcoholic, sponsored by Christian fanatics**, unable to speak the own native language properly, apparently a bit dull, a puppet of his vice president who is in bed with big business, a political carreer boost thanks to Daddy with a stolen electoral victory. Boomba. Whether ANYTHING of this is true or not, and if it is, to what extent, is not the question. This was the label he got from those, who determine his image: the media. from all sides of the political spectrum. This image got its own dynamic. To joke about him, to criticize him, to know everything better, to look down the nose at the entire USA got so en vogue.... it's astounding. Then came 9/11 and everyone was like "Uh-oh, what is the monkey gonna do now?? Sure he'll start a war!***" Well and then came Iraq. Europeans, especially those of countries who allied with the USA like Britain, Italy and Spain, were heavily against it. I remember it as if it was yesterday. How you could see it all coming. How German politicians used and abused the topic for their own campaigns, how millions of demonstrants went to the streets, how Aznar of Spain tried to profit from France's and Germany's refusal to go into Iraq, how you could see America searching for a reason to pick up the fight with Saddam. How they ignored all the contrary intelligence information and focused only on the information favoring their agenda..... Again, this is not playing wise guy. Maybe this estimation was unfair. It certainly was. Maybe Europeans looked at it from only one side of the coin (and Americans only from the other side). However, try to picture our frustration. Try to picture how we saw America ignoring international law, stepping over the international community with the arrogance of a despot. Try to picture a gigantic landslide and your hands are tied. You feel violated. It was incredibly frustrating. And at the top of the war machinery sat a monkey with his backers. It is simply impossible to make you guys understand. It would take years to explain and make you realize what war means to Europeans and Germans in particular. This continent had experienced total war. The complete horror of it. To us it appeared, as if America would go into war for the fun of it. Without remembering what war really is. As if America ignored a variety of alternative solutions. As if you wanted it. As if you were on a revenge trip for 9/11 in the heat of blind anger. Phew, I'm unable to express it. Then came Abu Ghuraib and Guantanamo and America kept violating international law without anyone being able to do anything about it. For a state that has experienced Nazi dictatorship it is impossible to swallow that prisoners are being tortured and held without trial. It's impossible. It's terrible. It's against everything we've learned from the war. America had become the devils right hand. The enemy of peace and human rights. A total tyrant. And the monkey on top of it got reelected. can you even sense how impossible that seemed for us? We could see the fear and anxiety. We could relate to the hurt pride after 9/11. But what was going on was all too wrong to be true. The truth? Somewhere inbetween I guess. But this is how it felt for Europeans and big parts of the rest of the world. This is the image. This image had real impact. Even if every information we received about the american motivation and the situation as a whole was a biased lie, it doesn't change the fact that this was the image the USA had. And then comes the question of who will be the next president. No matter how different McCain is from Bush, he doesn't stand for change. he promoted change but I seriously doubt that he was referring to the change people all over the world are longing for in politics. On the contrary, his campaign proved the old pattern of throwing dirt and feeding anxiety. This isn't change. How can he stand in front of an audience and say that Obama is a decent citizen and good father and that noone should be afraid of him and at the same time have his campaign constantly linking Obama to terrorists? That's total dishonesty. That's what has to change. The world was waiting for someone who is willing to AT LEAST TRY to solve problems through dialogue without precondition. The world was waiting for someone who doesn't say "America first**** but realizes that in the world of today, the destiny of a nation is attached to the destiny of other nations. That cooperation is needed. Obama stands for a new generation. A generation that wants to try oher solutions. Obama stands for change. That's his image. He has the image of being intelligent, educated, thoughtful, respectful, different, honest and friendly. The truth? Who knows! But the USA will profit from his image. It will be much easier to put American interests through when people trust you. George Bush and Barack Obama could say the exact same statement and in the former case people would boo and in the latter case they would cheer. And this is it. I'm sorry this took so long. I want to repeat that it's not my intentions to discuss the real events here. I wanted to show the effect of images and by doing so explain why I think the world is so happy about Obama. I could have done that in one sentence though ;D SORRY! **emphsis on fanatics, not on Christian. *** I was a soldier back then and really worried. ****That doesn't mean he won't put the USA first. That doesn't mean anyone will be angry if he puts the USA first. But there's a big difference between putting one's interests first and ignoring all other interests. 5. (...) It seems more like the hunger of sheep in search of a shepherd. And this shepherd may help them negotiate the National Debt but he ain't gonna save their soul. Do people know that? I guess we're going to find out. I think that's a good analogy. I think there is a worldwide hunger for leadership. I wouldn't go so far to say people are looking for spiritual leadership in Obama though.
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