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Post by robin on Aug 3, 2010 12:13:01 GMT -8
I don't understand what the big problem is with having a mosque near ground zero. I don't think that the government should pick religious winners or losers. I'm curious what others think of the controversy.
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Post by Kirby on Aug 3, 2010 12:22:10 GMT -8
I voted don't care. I agree with you, Robin...Americans should keep in mind that not all Muslims are extremist terrorists.
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Post by Josh on Aug 3, 2010 13:47:41 GMT -8
How near we talking?
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Post by robin on Aug 3, 2010 14:04:11 GMT -8
because of the level of outrage, I assume that it is very close to where the towers were. Would it make a difference in your opinion?
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Post by Josh on Aug 4, 2010 9:17:07 GMT -8
Well, if it's close enough to face ground zero, I might actually at least consider the question. If not, then definitely it's a non-issue.
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Post by robin on Aug 4, 2010 9:30:18 GMT -8
From what I heard today, it would be about 600 feet from ground zero and directly facing where the south tower once stood.
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Post by Josh on Aug 4, 2010 12:53:07 GMT -8
I can definitely see this as "triggering" to some who lost loved ones. I don't think it's a smart move for the mosque. But, hey, it's a free country.
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Post by rbbailey on Aug 4, 2010 15:48:54 GMT -8
I say "No" because I am not in Congress.
"Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion nor the free exercise thereof..."
The local government and civil committees in New York have made proper decisions on this issue, but that does not mean the private individuals and builder's unions in the city shouldn't protest or refuse to build for them.
Put it this way.... Would a Jewish temple be acceptable in Mecca? Yet the radical Muslims behind this mosque (yes, look it up) come here to take advantage of our system to build this mosque, specifically in this location.
It is no mistake.... Is it a mistake that the Dome of the Rock is built upon the foundation of what used to be the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem? Do you think it is a mistake that this organization is building a mosque as close as they possibly can to what was viewed by the radicals as the America's Temple? The twin towers were to these Muslims the same thing the Jewish temple was to the same strand of Islam.
Would it be conceivable to go to Japan and build a monument to the people who built the A-Bomb at ground zero? I don't make any apologies for dropping the Bomb on Japan at the end of WWII, but I would never go over there and also wave my middle finger around at them.
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Post by Josh on Aug 4, 2010 16:20:13 GMT -8
How do you know those are the motivations behind this group of Muslims?
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Post by rbbailey on Aug 4, 2010 17:55:04 GMT -8
If I ignored the prediction of motivation, I would only have one thing: Their actions. They actually are building a mosque 600 feet from Ground Zero.
If you are asking about whether they are being "middle finger-ish" -- how can they not know that this is what they are doing? How can they not know that some people would think it insensitive? Why can they not think to build it some place else? Why do they need to build it there? How can they at once say that they are trying to build 'bridges' while basically building Neo-Nazi community center across from Auschwitz? After all, 'NAZI' really just means National Socialist -- doesn't it?
If they were actually trying to build bridges, they would politely bow out and ask for permission to build the mosque in some other spot.
The Imam in charge has specifically stated that he wants to build it there because of 9/11 because he sees it as a way to bring people into submission to Allah. He used the word, "Da'wah" to describe the motivations. He has specifically said that the people who are concerned about it being a slap in the face need to see it as a, "bridge" to better relations.
Imagine the brother of the crazy guy who murdered your family moving in next to you in the house where the murders took place -- no, impossible to imagine because you would automatically know this brother just isn't thinking right.
We also have the history: The second or third most holy site in Islam is specifically built up on the ruins of the most holy site in Judaism. It is built on the temple just as this is being built next to the 'temple' of capitalism. Islam is not as monolithic as people sometimes think, but it is also true that many of the Imams in Europe have begun to speak openly about how they are completing the conquest of Europe without a sword. They are purposefully moving in and settling down by using the laws and tolerance of the host country.
More... The media is not reporting at all on who the group is that is behind this mosque. They won't look into the money or the leaders behind the front group. And just this week the media started calling it a "Community Center" instead of a mosque. But some estimates show that as many as 2000 people per prayer call will be going in and out of there.
As I said before, legally, there is no problem with this. The government cannot treat them any different than any other group. But does that make it a good idea?
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Post by rbbailey on Aug 4, 2010 18:03:54 GMT -8
Just to point out a double standard: How much would you bet that if a cross were proposed to be erected at ground zero there would be people lining up for the privilege of protesting and filing lawsuits against it.
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Post by Josh on Aug 5, 2010 9:35:42 GMT -8
rb, some thoughts to come.
but for now, I think the poll results are pretty interesting. a pretty even split!
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Post by robin on Aug 5, 2010 9:39:26 GMT -8
I actually agree with some of your points rbbailey. Private citizens should speak out and protest the building of the mosque if their driven to do so. That is perfectly legitimate, and in some ways I sympathize with those opposed to building the mosque so close to where 3000 Americans were killed by Muslim terrorists. But is would be wrong and perhaps dangerous to ask the government to step in and prohibit the building of the mosque. I don't think we should allow that type of precedent to be set.
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Post by Josh on Aug 5, 2010 18:10:15 GMT -8
Nazis by definition are anti-Jewish.
Muslims are not by definition pro-terrorism.
So I don't see how this analogy works.
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Post by rbbailey on Aug 9, 2010 13:26:05 GMT -8
How many mosques are built upon the ruins of churches and synagogue? Everywhere in the world. This is merely a continuation of the mindset that, as the imam of this mosque said, that Islam is meant to dominate. If we can't learn from history, what do we have? Why should we look at history at all if we are not going to take anecdotal evidence from it?
Do you know the scheduled date of groundbreaking for beginning to build?
9/11/2011.
Have you looked at the foreign press on how they are reporting it? Have you seen where the money is coming from? Have you heard the quote from the imam where he talks about 9/11?
Again, I'm not saying we should be against mosques. I'm saying there is an agenda here, and I think we would not be doing anyone any good to ignore it.
You didn't really catch what I was saying about the NAZI thing. Nazi means National Socialism. But of course we associate it with murder and antisemitism. Same thing with Islam. It is a religion, but it is easily associated with terrorism for many reasons.
Nazi? It's only National Socialism -- right? Islam? It's only a religion -- right?
And what of my analogy about putting a cross at the cite of the twin towers? That would go all the way to the Supreme Court. The people who are trying to allow this mosque to be built are the same people who would take the cross to court.
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Post by Josh on Aug 9, 2010 13:34:16 GMT -8
Rbbailey- I haven't actually read up on it. If you have specific information that indicates that this particular Muslim mosque is akin to a "neo-Nazi" group then your argument is valid.
How many churches are built on the ruins of pagan temples? Everywhere in the world.
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Post by rbbailey on Aug 9, 2010 13:39:37 GMT -8
How many churches are built on the ruins of pagan temples? Everywhere in the world. Which proves my point!
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