Mark 4

[Josh]

2/1/06:

"By the measure you use, it will be measured... to you" (verse 24). Powerful verse to remember as when interact with others in all things.

[Josh]

2/1/06:

The parable of the Mustard Seed (v. 30-32) is one of the most often overlooked but striking prophecies of Christ which has literally come true. The Church started off as a motley crew of misfits on the verge of extinction. Within 300 years it Christianity was the official religion of the Roman Empire, which had previously sought to destroy faith in Christ. Today, Christianity has spread into every part of the world, and even 33.3% of the worlds population at least claim some kind or quality of Christian belief.

[michelle]

2/6/06:

I find it interesting that in the parable of the seeds Satan is portrayed by a bird. Typically, a bird seems completely harmless. It seems so appropriate that Satan would seem harmless (I mean, he is the ultimate deceiver) but when left unprotected, we fall prey to him.

[Josh]

2/6/06:

Yep, it's kinda fitting for the whole "appears as an angel of light" motif.

Where is that in the NT that satan is called the "prince of the power of the air"? (Eph. 2:2)

[michelle]

In reading chapter 4 again, I was struck (I am struck a lot when reading the Bible) by verse 34, "He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything."

Let's see if I can get this out clearly. After this verse jumped out at me, I re-read the chapter and it hit me that Jesus talking in parables can be likened to the Bible as a whole. Jesus talks to the masses in parables, which can leave many to say, "HUH??". Are we really supposed to get that when Jesus is talking about seeds that He is actually talking about people who hear the Word? While some people might be able to make that connection without the explanation (I certainly am not one of those people), Jesus explanation of the parable to the disciples, whom he had a more intimate relationship with, is what helps to drive home his point. Jesus doesn't just leave his disciples in the dark about what he meant by his parables and the more time they spent with him, the more I think they would have started to read between the lines...though there are times when that was not the case.

Anyway, the point that I am trying to make, thought not too clearly I fear, is that the Bible is like the parables. To the masses and to those that read it casually, it can be quite the conundrum. But when we are in an intimate relationship with God, it makes more sense to us. And the more time that we spend in the Bible and the deeper our relationship with Christ gets, the more I think we can get the Bible. I know that this is not some new revelation, but I was excited to read between the lines. It's not a common occurence for me.

[Josh]

I was struck (I am struck a lot when reading the Bible)

Another case of battered bible reader syndrome... they just keep going back for more...

[Josh]

Chris is teaching again this Sunday. He was particularly keen to focus in on parables and this is THE parable chapter in Mark.

[shirley]

So after church some of us had a discussion about the Parable of the Mustard Seed, and I said I was always taught that this was a bad thing, re: the size and the birds.
To which Josh said, "Oh really?"
So here is a quote from W.L.'s footnotes (the heresy I was raised with) from the Mark 4:30-34 text.
"32 What is signified by the seed in vv. 3 and 26 and by the lamp in v. 21 discloses the nature and inward reality of the kingdom of God; whereas what is signified by the mustard seed's becoming great, contrary to its kind, and the birds' roosting under it's shade speaks of the corruption and outward appearance of the kingdom of God."
I'm not in anyway defending this interpretation, I just want to know what the classical view is, and why this one might be wrong?

[Josh]

Here's an example of how the earliest Christian commentators interpreted Mark 4:30-34:

Clement of Alexandria (late second century) explained it this way: From the tiny mustard seed which resists infection and adversity, comes the magnificent tree of the boundless, worldwise community of faith offering it's branches to the whole world.

I think Witness Lee's teaching that this growth in the mustard seed is "not according to its kind" is silly- the mustard seed was the smallest seed of any plant cultivated in first century palestine, and for its size, it did grow amazingly from its humble origins- up to ten feet tall and capable of supporting birds and suppying shade Jesus or Luke may use some hyperbole in his illustration (in Luke it is said to turn into a tree) , but he's obviously making a point that people would understand from a plant they've seen go from very small to very large. It is in the mustard seed's nature to grow big; so it is with the church. It is not against its nature.

As to whether this growing and nesting is a good thing or a bad thing, it is a bit tricky to tell from context. In Mark this parable is next to one (the seen growing on its own) that seems positive about the kingdom, but it is true that this parable comes next to other parables about negative aspects of the kingdom in other gospels (wheat and tares, etc..) It's also next to one of the most enigmatic parables of Jesus (the one about the yeast in the dough which is hard to figure our whether that's a positive thing or not)

It might be helpful to compare this parable to other promises in the Bible that the kingdom of God would be great and grow throughout the world (in a positive way), like:

Daniel 7:27

27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

NASB

Isaiah 9:6-7

6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

NASB

Daniel 2:31-35, 44-45

31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
...

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.

“The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

NIV

[shirley]

Jan 18, 2012 20:42:06 GMT -8 Josh said:

Here's an example of how the earliest Christian commentators interpreted Mark 4:30-34:

Clement of Alexandria (late second century) explained it this way: From the tiny mustard seed which resists infection and adversity, comes the magnificent tree of the boundless, worldwise community of faith offering it's branches to the whole world.

...up to ten feet tall and capable of supporting birds and suppying shade

Thank you. Of course W.L. didn't necessarily see the large spread of Christianity as a positive thing.

Jan 18, 2012 20:42:06 GMT -8 Josh said:

As to whether this growing and nesting is a good thing or a bad thing, it is a bit tricky to tell from context.

At the beginning of Chapter 4 (as mentioned in a previous post) Satan is defined as the bird in the fields snatching up seeds. Is there a parallel? and what does this mean for the kingdom of God?

[Josh]

Jan 19, 2012 12:23:38 GMT -8 shirley said:

Jan 18, 2012 20:42:06 GMT -8 Josh said:

As to whether this growing and nesting is a good thing or a bad thing, it is a bit tricky to tell from context.

At the beginning of Chapter 4 (as mentioned in a previous post) Satan is defined as the bird in the fields snatching up seeds. Is there a parallel? and what does this mean for the kingdom of God?

Well, just like "yeast" is arguably sometimes bad and sometimes good in Jesus' sayings, symbols do not necessarily translate from one analogy to another.

I'll have to think about it, but I'm sure there are other symbols that change from positive or negative association between Jesus parables.

Sounds like a scavenger hunt!

[Josh]

thought of one. money in the parables can either mean worldly wealth/greed or it can mean god-given gifts/ talents.

[Josh]

or how about satan= lion and jesus=lion?

[shirley]

Been thinking. That last one, Lion? where's that?

[Josh]

Well, with the lion example I was moving beyond Jesus' parables to other metaphors in Scripture whose meaning can change from context to context.

In Revelation 5:5 Jesus is called the Lion of Judah.

In 1 Peter 5:8 satan is called a lion seeking whom he will devour.

So, just like the symbolic definition of "lion" changes from passage to passage, so might the symbolic definition of "birds".

[shirley]

Well if we're stretching things, how about God as the burning bush to Moses and Lake of fire where Satan dwells. Yeah that's all I got.

[Josh]

How about "thief"? Jesus is called a "thief" (Luke 12:35-40) yet so are false Messiahs (John 10:8-10)