ben
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Post by ben on Jul 18, 2013 9:57:19 GMT -8
From Disappointment With God by Philip Yancey: What do you think about God and satan having a wager at the expense of Job?
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Post by Josh on Jul 18, 2013 10:04:30 GMT -8
Do you mean should we see the interaction between god and job as like a wager? Or do you mean how do we feel about it?
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ben
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Post by ben on Jul 18, 2013 15:10:05 GMT -8
Do you mean should we see the interaction between god and job as like a wager? Or do you mean how do we feel about it? I am a little bothered by it so I guess I mean how do you feel about it. I know God can do what He wants and we really do not have any reason to question Him but it confuses me as far as a loving God's character.
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Post by stevekimes on Jul 21, 2013 8:43:06 GMT -8
I see this as an issue before Jesus.
"Satan" is the title of the prosecutor in an ancient court, like a District Attorney. God brings Job up as a good person, in contrast to Satan's list of unrighteous people throughout the earth. Satan then wants the opportunity to test Job, to prove his righteousness. This is, in a sense, a test to prove that humanity-- of any sort-- is worthy to rule the world. Is there even a remnant of humanity that is worthy to do the task God appointed humanity to do?
From a human standpoint, the test is horrible, even immoral. Of course, because God created, he has the right to take anyone's life he wants. But it still seems heartless to set this test up for humanity on the personal level.
But this is why I think that Jesus is so important. He is there to make the courtroom human. He knows what it is like to be human, to be tested in all things, and he understands humanity from the human perspective. Although God has always known all things, God the Son provides perspective that otherwise would be impossible.
God established this "wager" because he had confidence in Job. That is love, but from a distance. Satan is no longer in heaven, and Jesus is the only perspective that is given. Thus, God's love is more personal, more "human", more understandable from our perspective.
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Post by Josh on Jul 22, 2013 8:37:33 GMT -8
Steve: i specifically like your suggestion that this test is about whether gods original plan for humanity to rule the earth can still be snatched put of the jaws of the Fall.
it is also, I think, instructive that the book of job specifically references the hope and need for the incarnation (Job16:18-21 and 19:23-27) ,to fully answer the riddle of Job's suffering.
Ben, does it help that God Himself isn't just willing to bet on another's suffering, but antes up Himself by becoming flesh and blood and going through the test Himself.
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ben
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Post by ben on Jul 23, 2013 9:40:04 GMT -8
The issue I have a struggle with is that Job's kids were taken all to prove that Job remained faithful in a bet between God and satan. I understand that Jesus was treated unfairly too but I don't read that this was part of a bet.
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Post by Josh on Jul 23, 2013 21:57:56 GMT -8
If not a "bet", how would you characterize it?
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ben
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Post by ben on Jul 24, 2013 19:43:07 GMT -8
I don't understand the question. Yancey called it a wager which in my Hawaiian broken english means a bet.
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Post by Josh on Jul 24, 2013 20:27:51 GMT -8
Setting aside Yancey's perspective for amoment, when you read God's interaction with satan in the book of job, how do you characterize it?
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ben
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Post by ben on Jul 25, 2013 12:52:55 GMT -8
To me it seems like God was bragging on Job (1:8,2:3). It's like He wants this wager with satan. He allowed satan in the 1st chapter to take Job's wealth and the kids. In the 2nd chapter, Job was physically stricken. As I see it, God was in control and it was His plan all along. I get all of that because God can do want He pleases. I still struggle with the 10 kids getting snuffed out. Not only that but the servants got snuffed too. I hate to say it but the only one that deserved to be snuffed was Job's wife. It just seems that God is being unfair.
What I am getting through in my interaction with God is who am I to say God is unfair. Jesus death was unfair too. I am nothing but it still bothers me. I am just being honest with myself and with God and sharing it with the body.
I just finished reading Yancey's book and it seems like his answer is life is unfair. But we have the hope of a new heaven and a new earth when all will be perfect and fair. That's all true but I want to follow God because of who He is and not just for a better life.
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Post by Josh on Jul 25, 2013 15:23:19 GMT -8
Okay, I'm understanding you better. I thought maybe you disagreed with yancey calling it a wager- but you see it like that too. It's the fairness of it that bothers you. Guess I'm not too sharp this week.
Yes, the death of "innocent parties" seems troubling.
A thought occurs to me though that though job is archtypical, he is not unique. We all experience job-like testing to various degrees of suffering and with different end results (see Hebrews 11). Since this is the case, might we not conclude that jobs sons and servants didn't just die as actors in his story- they died as main characters in their own God-written stories, and many of them probably gained a "better resurrection" because of it.
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Post by Josh on Jul 25, 2013 15:29:34 GMT -8
The thought I was sharing reminds me of in Lewis' chronicles of Narnia when Aslan tells the kids:
“Child" said the Voice, "I am telling you your story, not hers. I tell no one any story but his own.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Horse and His Boy
The fact is, we have to trust that everyone- even children and servants- have their own stories written by the Author of life.
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ben
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Post by ben on Jul 26, 2013 14:51:52 GMT -8
Well I guess to say that the 10 kids and the servants realized a better life as a result of the Wager is the same as Yancy saying that a new heaven and a new earth is ahead. At this point in my understanding this is speculation because it is not clear in the text. In fact it seems like their lives were really not that important because the main course was the faith of Job.
One can speculate that an all perfect loving God would welcome these lives into His home but where would the free will and faith of these individuals result in that theory being that Job's faith is the "Lord of the Ring" battle. It is not said in the text.
In my opinion Yancey came to the conclusion the God is unfair in the Book of Job and therefore one is disappointed with God. He also made a point the one can be disappointed with God and one can be disappointed without God. So for me, that is the choice to make.
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Post by Josh on Jul 27, 2013 13:18:00 GMT -8
Well I guess to say that the 10 kids and the servants realized a better life as a result of the Wager is the same as Yancy saying that a new heaven and a new earth is ahead. At this point in my understanding this is speculation because it is not clear in the text. In fact it seems like their lives were really not that important because the main course was the faith of Job. One can speculate that an all perfect loving God would welcome these lives into His home but where would the free will and faith of these individuals result in that theory being that Job's faith is the "Lord of the Ring" battle. It is not said in the text. . But what I'm arguing is that if we cod read the story of one of jobs kids it would be just as dramatic a cliff hanger and vindication of gods goodness and mystery as the book of job is. And it would be a story in which job is just a minor player.
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Post by Josh on Jul 27, 2013 13:20:09 GMT -8
Hmm, it's been a long time since unread the book but I don't remember yancey reaching that conclusion.
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ben
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Post by ben on Jul 28, 2013 19:51:25 GMT -8
I think I may have misspoke when I said Yancey said God was unjust. The closest paragraph that brought me to that conclusion was on page 209:
An unavoidable question lurks just under the surface of the Book of Job. If, for the sake of a "test" of love, a husband subjected his wife to the trauma that Job had to endure, we would call him pathological and lock him away. If a mother hid herself from her children, refusing to call out directions from the shore in the fog, we would judge her an unfit mother. How then can we understand such behavior, such a wager by God himself.
On a side note I was watching Rick Warren's first sermon since his son committed suicide. I ached for his family's lost. The conclusions I got from the sermon (his wife spoke too) was that God's ways are a mystery and hope is the greatest need we Christians have. Just as Yancey spoke of a better life from this broken world we can only hope for the new heavens and new earth.
Last night before bed, I kept saying God must have taken the 10 kids and and Job's servants to his home. After all that is part of every Christian's hope. To be honest though, I can't say that for sure. I guess that's where faith comes into the picture. I must ask God to help me.
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ben
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Post by ben on Jul 28, 2013 20:09:13 GMT -8
Well I guess to say that the 10 kids and the servants realized a better life as a result of the Wager is the same as Yancy saying that a new heaven and a new earth is ahead. At this point in my understanding this is speculation because it is not clear in the text. In fact it seems like their lives were really not that important because the main course was the faith of Job. One can speculate that an all perfect loving God would welcome these lives into His home but where would the free will and faith of these individuals result in that theory being that Job's faith is the "Lord of the Ring" battle. It is not said in the text. . But what I'm arguing is that if we cod read the story of one of jobs kids it would be just as dramatic a cliff hanger and vindication of gods goodness and mystery as the book of job is. And it would be a story in which job is just a minor player.
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