144000 and tribe of Dan

[robin]

I have been interested in studying why Dan is missing from the 144000 mention in the book of Revelation and I'm interested in any ideas or theory's others have on the subject.

[stevekimes]

I believe that the 144,000 are those believers in Jesus who are left after the great persecution/martyrdom mentioned in Rev. 6. Since no one (except for a very few Jews) know what tribe they are in, I believe the tribes to be symbolic, that this group is what is left of the true Israel, the living people of God.

Dan has always been a problematic tribe, and always ready to be idolatrous. It could be that Dan is just removed because the one sin Revelation cannot accept is idolatry.

It is interesting to me that the tribe of "Joseph" is mentioned as well as Joseph's son Manasseh. Although Joseph could be just a stand in for Ephraim, it is interesting that Manasseh would really be half the tribe of Joseph.

Again, the tribes are messed with enough that I can't consider them literal genetic tribes.

[robin]

What is you overall view of Revelation, Steve? Are you a futurist, preterist, historicist, or spiritualist? It would help me understand where your coming from.

[stevekimes]

I am mostly a futurist, but I see more of Revelation as historical than most (like chapters 4-6).

[robin]

So you think this prophecy has been fulfilled? In what sence, or what event can a person look at as a potential fulfillment of this prophecy?

[Josh]

Wouldn't that mean that he thinks it has a future fulfillment, as the prophecy is in chapter 7?

[Josh]

I don't have time, but I think it would be helpful for someone to post the list of the 12 tribes from the OT next to the list from Revelation as a reference point.

[stevekimes]

Ugg. I tried and failed. Can't get them to line up right.

In Exodus 1:2-5 there is a list of the 12 sons.
In Deuteronomy 27:12-13 there is a short list of the 12 tribes.
In Numbers 1 and following there is a longer list of the 12 tribes and tribal leaders.

Joseph had two sons, Manessah and Ephraim. Ephraim was the largest (half) tribe for a long time, so much so that the northern kingdom of Israel was at times called Ephraim, occasionally it is called Joseph. In Numbers 1 and following, both Ephraim and Manessah are mentioned separately, under the title "the sons of Joseph".

Dan is mentioned in every list of the tribes except for Rev 7.

[Josh]

I'm not very good at tables either

Jacob's Sons: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, and Joseph

Tribes that Received Territory: Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim, and Manasseh

Tribes in Revelation: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Manasseh, Joseph

[Josh]

So, here's my theory:

There were 12 sons originally, but when it came time for the allotment of land, the Levites were to be spread throughout the land and not receive an allotment of their own territory. But perhaps since the Israelites were so fond of 12 and because Joseph's tribe had gotten to be bigger than the others, it was split into Ephraim and Manasseh, one of which replaced "Joseph" and the other which replaced "Levi".

However, when it comes to Revelation and the eschatological kingdom of God, the Levites are re-included because of their importance as priests who represent the priesthood of believers. This created a weird 13 tribe situation, so one was cut out, and perhaps Dan was chosen due to their infamous idolatry. This may symbolize how in God's kingdom, God has uprooted the elements that have rebelled against him and supplanted them with new shoots as he chooses (as in Romans 11).

That's my best guess.

[robin]

So Josh, I take it that as a preterist you believe this prophecy to have been fulfilled around 70 AD?

Regarding the tribe of Dan The futurist who believe that the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled and believe that it will literally be fulfilled, say that Dan is omitted because of their Idolatry, but also because the Antichrist will emerge from the tribe of Dan. As evidence the site prophecies like Genesis 49:16-18, Jeremiah 8:16


Genesis
16 “Dan shall judge his people
As one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way,
A viper by the path,
That bites the horse’s heels
So that its rider shall fall backward.
18 I have waited for your salvation, O Lord!

Jeremiah 8:16
16 From the land of the tribe of Dan,
we hear the snorting of the enemy’s horses.
The ground shakes from the pounding of their hooves.
They have come to destroy the land
and everything in it.
They have come to destroy the city
and all the people who live there.’”

[Josh]

The futurist take on those two passages is weak. It reads too much into them. Neither statement sheds a particularly negative light on Dan.

[Josh]

I think this sealing was of the Jewish believers who escaped the destruction of Jerusalem due to Jesus warning. They were the faithful remnant of the 12 tribes.

[robin]

Lets just say a better case can be made, but I don't see the weakness that you do in those passages.

Overall I just wanted to see if anyone else thought that the omission of Dan held much significance, and it appears that besides idle worship, which all of the tribes were involved in, you don't think it goes beyond that. Am I correct?

[Josh]

Well, one could make a good argument that Dan's idoaltry was greater than the other tribes, because it became one of the two centers of the false worship of Israel after the Kingdom split. One of the golden calves Jeroboam made to compete with the temple was put in Dan.

Later, Amos prophesied:

Amos 8:14 Those who swear by the sin of Samaria—
who say, ‘As surely as your god lives, Dan,’
or, ‘As surely as the god of Beersheba lives’—
they will fall, never to rise again.”

Maybe this was a curse upon the tribe of Dan to never rise again?