The Laying on of Hands

[Josh]

Jun 19, 2012 7:34:55 GMT -8 shirley said:

Chris, or Robin, do you believe that this asking for the filling of the Holy Spirit is something we need to ask another person for? Or is it something we can simply ask God for? Does another "spirit-filled" person need to lay there hands on you according your belief or experience?

Just my two cents. I believe that I had an experience of "baptism of the Holy Spirit" several months after my water baptism, and I was all alone praying when it happened. So, personally, I don't think there are any hard and fast rules to this experience (I also don't think it's necessarily a one-time event). However, I do think God does often like or prefer to operate through the members of his church to benefit other members of his church.

[shirley]

Looks like my post got a little messed up.
This comment: "This verse says to ask "Him", God, for the Holy Spirit." was in reference to where Chris said: "Jesus did seem to indicate that the Holy Spirit should be asked for after all (Luke 11:13)."

[christopher]

Shirley wrote:

I'm having a hard time accepting that the Holy Spirit comes to us by any means other than directly from God himself.

and

"This verse says to ask "Him", God, for the Holy Spirit."

Perhaps I should clarify. I'm not saying that one needs to have an intermediator (like a priest) to be baptized in the Spirit. God, and God alone, is indeed who you ask for the Holy Spirit. I never meant to imply otherwise if that's what you're asking.

But in the same way that we ask and offer intercessory prayer for each other, I believe we're called to a community involvement in spiritual activities like baptism, communion, and the laying on of hands. It's not that it has to be, but that it is probably to be preferred. There are many things we do as Christians, not because they are required or part of some formula, but because they are profitable for us.

There was, after all, some common doctrine in the church called the "laying on of hands" (though it's unclear what it meant exactly) that the author of Hebrews said was as foundational to the faith as baptism (Heb 6). We can only get an anecdotal glimpse of what that meant by the instances we read about in the other writings.

This is an interesting idea Chris. Part of me likes the idea of passing on the flame, but even on the day of Pentacost the Spirit came upon them "like a mighty rushing wind" and they encouraged people to repent and be baptized, that this would in itself fill them with the Holy Spirit(v. 38). I didn't read anything in Acts 2 about laying on of hands to imbue the Holy Spirit. Did I miss it?

Right you are. In my comparing this, the commissioning of the universal priesthood of believers, with the commissioning of the Aaronic priesthood (Leviticus), the Spirit coming on the believers originally in Acts 2 would be akin to God lighting the fire in Leviticus 9:24. The priests were told in some of the descriptions of the previous offerings to never let the altar fire go out (Lev 6:12-13). God didn't send fire down every time a sacrifice was made, just the first time. Likewise, the keeping of the "fire" alive in the believers could be seen as this filling of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands. Again, this isn't something I'm insisting on, and the ambiguity of this practice leaves lots of room for various interpretations. It's just the one I favor, and one of which I've seen and heard many other favorable testimonies.

Though you don't read specifically in Acts 2 the laying on of hands accompanied with baptism, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It also doesn't mean that it did happen.

We sometimes have to do a little imaginative "reading between the lines" based on other biblical data when certain details of an event are left out. But, of course, we have to do so cautiously, and un-dogmatically.

[shirley]

Thank you Chris for your clarifications.

I would like to answer Josh's original questions now.

Jun 5, 2012 20:16:27 GMT -8 Josh said:

A few questions- I'm interested to hear different perspectives and experiences on this:

1) what is the historic, biblical function or purpose of the act of "laying on of hands"?

2) what role, if any, should the practice have in the modern church?

3) what has been your experience with the practice? (or lack of experience)

4) how can the practice be beneficial? how might it be detrimental?

1) As far as I can tell, it's for healing. That's what Jesus was doing.
2) I think for praying for healing today is fine, provided the person you are praying for and laying hands on is comfortable with this.
3) My upbringing said it was an obsolete rite, my knowledge of this is that it is generally practiced by charismatic groups, my only personal experience with such a group was very negative. I felt the air was full of evil spirits and I could not get out of there fast enough, fortunately the person I was with felt the same way. I have never felt that way before then or since. I have also avoided any church or gathering that might possibly be considered charismatic.
4) Beneficial - I am willing to consider that their might be healing power from the Holy Spirit that transfers to the person whom you are touching (a lot of philosophies would agree with this concept)
Detrimental - We get into conversations like the one above where I feel like my salvation is being called into question. This is honestly upsetting and why (Chris) church's need doctrinal statements. I get that sometimes God, as Spirit, might provide a special outpouring to a person or group(I believe there are verses that use this wording), but I thought it was a foundational belief among mainstream Christianity that the Father, Son -Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are One, so when you are saved and you ask Jesus to come into your heart, along with him comes God and the Holy Spirit. They are not separated. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyway that's where I stand on the subject.

[Josh]

but I thought it was a foundational belief among mainstream Christianity that the Father, Son -Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are One, so when you are saved and you ask Jesus to come into your heart, along with him comes God and the Holy Spirit. They are not separated. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

What I mean by a "baptism" of the Holy Spirit or a special "filling of the spirit" is an event or season in your life that the Holy Spirit comes over you in a particularly powerful way for a particular purpose. I absolutely believe that upon salvation, the Holy Spirit is granted to all believers.

There are some Christians who seem to veer in the direction you are suggesting; that there can somehow be Christians without the Holy Spirit. I think that is a misunderstanding of certain passages in Acts where certain believers received the Spirit in a powerful way sometime after their conversation, whether because of the laying on of the apostles hands or being instructed in the role of the Holy Spirit.

[christopher]

Hi Shirley,

I have to admit that I'm puzzled by your statement that you feel your salvation was being called into question. Can you point to the statement that gave you that impression? I hope it wasn't anything I said.

I understand what you are saying about what you are referring to as charismatic groups, but I think it's important to note that there is a very wide spectrum of what would considered "charismatic". Not all of them are swinging from chandeliers and barking like dogs, and you might be surprised by some groups that call themselves charismatic (ACF for example). It simply means that you believe the gifts of the Spirit are still present with the church and did not cease with the closing of the Canon. But alas, the image of the term has been soiled by a few charismaniacs.

I don't have time to get into it tonight, but I'd like to continue the discussion if you're willing.

In the meantime, I'd like to get your thoughts on passages like Acts 19.

[Josh]

I have to admit that I'm puzzled by your statement that you feel your salvation was being called into question. Can you point to the statement that gave you that impression? I hope it wasn't anything I said.

I think I know what she's getting at. If you talk to some kinds of charismatics they basically make it sound like there are 2 or 3 formal stages to salvation. In stage 1 you get converted, then you mature to some point until stage 2 you finally get the Holy Spirit and then some even say you push on until stage 3 which is perfection (in this life).

I think that whole schema is judgmental and insinuates that people who are a "lower level" have a "lesser" or "immature" salvation.

[shirley]

Jun 25, 2012 21:37:37 GMT -8 christopher said:

I have to admit that I'm puzzled by your statement that you feel your salvation was being called into question. Can you point to the statement that gave you that impression? I hope it wasn't anything I said.

I have not, to my recollection, nor do I desire, had someone lay their hands on me and ask that I be baptized in the Holy Spirit. To be clear, when I was baptized it was, "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". I know many wonderful Christians for whom this is true. Yours and Robin comments made me feel as though you guys believe that ones salvation is not complete until this rite is performed. Chris, though I don't always completely agree, I very much respect your theological viewpoints, adding dis-qualifiers like "just my opinion" doesn't change that.

Jun 25, 2012 21:37:37 GMT -8 christopher said:

...and you might be surprised by some groups that call themselves charismatic (ACF for example). It simply means that you believe the gifts of the Spirit are still present with the church and did not cease with the closing of the Canon. But alas, the image of the term has been soiled by a few charismaniacs.

I can't help laughing a little whenever I read this statement about ACF. Trust me the words "spirit-filled" and "charismatic" are nowhere on Aletheia's web-site, or anything that would lead me to believe walking into church would lead me to another experience like the one I had(And I suspect Josh was intentional about that). Having met with you guys for awhile now, I realize that members run the spectrum from conservative to charismatic(referring specifically to individual expressions of worship). Your definition suggests that being charismatic is about holding certain beliefs not necessarily the way one worships. (I'm currently reading a book that is trying to convince me that the gifts of the Spirit are still with us - I will post a book review on it when I'm done.) I am actually not against this belief, just wary.

I read Acts 19, I'm still thinking about it.

[christopher]

Shirley, I can certainly relate to your sentiments. The first time Denice and I saw people laying hands on someone to pray over them, we were so weirded out we wondered if we'd go back. But over time, we came to embrace it as an intimate community expression of love, unit, and agreement toward a common prayer.

I'm sorry you felt/feel uncomfortable with the opinions Robin and I are sharing, but that's kind of what the forum is for. But I assure you, nobody is calling your salvation into question here or saying its incomplete. You have salvation by virtue of having a right relationship with the One who has the power to save. It's not for me or Robin or anyone else to say whether or not you lack something in your relationship with Jesus. It's the Holy Spirit within you that will let you know if that's the case.

To be clear, when I was baptized it was, "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit".

Its debated among scholars whether or not that that phrase is actually in the original text in Matt 28. But whether it is or not, When the bible talks about doing something (like baptizing, healing, or driving out demons) "in the name of...", it means as an authorized agent or representative of. It's not invoking a formula of any kind. I believe God accepts either baptism in the name of Trinity or simply Jesus. It just means that the baptized is acting on behalf of, and with the authority of God.

Being "spirit-filled" in the charismatic sense has nothing to do (necessarily) with whatever you experienced. The gifts of the Spirit are for the edification of the church. They include all kinds of things that you would probably not associate with charismatic groups (like helps, teaching, even administration - see 1 cor 12-14). I personally don't speak in tongues, but several people at ACF ( including Josh) do. But I have often felt filled with the Spirit while teaching or serving in other ways. If someone is blessed or edified in some way by their experience at an ACF meeting, they've experienced a "spirit-filled" church IMO.

BTW, I'm curious to know what kind of doctrinal statement you think is necessary (especially as it pertains to this topic). Do have an example that you can post that best fits your beliefs?

[shirley]

Hi Chris,

Jun 28, 2012 7:22:46 GMT -8 christopher said:

Shirley, I can certainly relate to your sentiments. The first time Denice and I saw people laying hands on someone to pray over them, we were so weirded out we wondered if we'd go back. But over time, we came to embrace it as an intimate community expression of love, unit, and agreement toward a common prayer.

I wouldn't say I was "wierded out", but it did put me on the alert - on the other hand there was nothing else wierd about it, and I realized that it was entirely biblical so I should just chill and get over it. Not that getting over it happened that fast, but I came back to ACF anyway.

Jun 28, 2012 7:22:46 GMT -8 christopher said:

I'm sorry you felt/feel uncomfortable with the opinions Robin and I are sharing, but that's kind of what the forum is for.

Hey, I really don't take everything personally, especially when I'm not involved in the conversation. I thought about responding earlier, then refrained. I jumped in with my questions when I thought I might be in disagreement or misunderstanding something. I meant "calling into question" in a more general way - that happened to include myself.

Jun 28, 2012 7:22:46 GMT -8 christopher said:

BTW, I'm curious to know what kind of doctrinal statement you think is necessary (especially as it pertains to this topic). Do have an example that you can post that best fits your beliefs?

Well this topic is about laying on of hands and my original comment about doctrinal statements was about defining salvation. (I felt you and Robin were redefining or adding to my understanding). There are things I am confidant in such as Jesus came into my heart and I was saved when I was seven years old. But, I will openly admit, there are bits of theology I know nothing about except other peoples opinions which have influenced mine. In this area I know little, my beliefs are too moldable for me to feel remotely confidant in posting definitive beliefs.

So, back on the subject of laying on hands for healing - my son genuinely believes that my kisses take the pain away from his wounds, so I believe it too. Do you believe this is related? Most children do believe this, right? Is this part of what it means to "be like a little child"? When and why does it one day "stop working"? Apparently it's transferable too. I kiss his hands and he applies them to those parts I don't want to kiss, and he feels better. Just some thoughts.....

[christopher]

Hi Shirley,

you wrote:

Well this topic is about laying on of hands and my original comment about doctrinal statements was about defining salvation. (I felt you and Robin were redefining or adding to my understanding).

So, this is what is on the ACF website:

4. THE SALVATION OF MANKIND

A. Means of Salvation

Humans are saved by grace, through faith (active trust) in the work of Jesus Christ. This salvation is a gift from God, not based on our own righteousness (Eph. 2:8-9, John 3:16-18, 10:9-13). However, repentance always accompanies true salvation (Acts 2:38, 2 Timothy 2:19, Luke 13:5).



B. Evidences of Salvation


The inward evidence to the believer of his salvation is the direct witness of the Spirit. The outward evidence to all men is a life of holiness (Rom. 8:16, 1 Thess. 4:7, 2 Tim.1:9, 2 Timothy 2:19, 1 Tim. 5:12-13).

What are your thoughts on this statement regarding salvation?

[Josh]

Here's the link to the realted Acts 19 convo: www.aletheia.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=acts&action=display&thread=3742&page=1