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Post by Josh on Sept 18, 2011 16:17:58 GMT -8
I'm reading the New York Times' Bestseller Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy by Eric Metaxas right now. For a long time Bonhoeffer has been one of my favorite characters in history, but this book is a super thorough treatment on his life. I'd highly recommend it to anyone either interested in World War 2 era Germany or church history. If you've ever wondered which Germans actually stood up to Hitler, what Christians in Germany were doing in the 1930's, etc, this is an excellent resource. So far I'm most fascinated by the details of Bonhoeffer's experiences in America.  On amazon: www.amazon.com/Bonhoeffer-Pastor-Martyr-Prophet-Spy/dp/1595551387 |
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Post by Josh on Sept 20, 2011 20:49:29 GMT -8
Another thing that stands out to me is how prophetic Bonhoeffer was regarding the German situation already in 1931/1932. While others were willing to compromise because they couldn't see the storm coming, Bonhoeffer had an amazing track record of resisting Nazi expansion from early on.
The book also reveals how overtly anti-Christian Hitler really was with eye-witness testimony from the likes of Albert Speer, etc. One section particularly explodes the popular atheist myth of Hitler as a "Christian tyrant". If Hitler can be aligned with any philosophical/ religious view it would be best to call him "Nietzschean". And most of the other Nazi leaders were rabidly anti-Christian- especially Himmler who wanted to completely eradicate Christianity in Germany, replaced by neo-paganism.
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Post by stevekimes on Sept 22, 2011 5:25:40 GMT -8
The one thing that always bugged me about Bonhoeffer, whom I love dearly, is that he made the choice to participate in the assassination of Hitler. In The Cost of Discipleship, he spoke adamantly about obedience and of loving your enemy, yet he chose to dismiss the strict discipleship of love he taught. I don't understand that.
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Post by Josh on Sept 22, 2011 16:09:07 GMT -8
The one thing that always bugged me about Bonhoeffer, whom I love dearly, is that he made the choice to participate in the assassination of Hitler. In The Cost of Discipleship, he spoke adamantly about obedience and of loving your enemy, yet he chose to dismiss the strict discipleship of love he taught. I don't understand that. Funny. That's something I've always looked up to him for  Not really, but sorta. I'll be back with my more sober thoughts on the subject when I get a chance. |
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Post by Josh on Sept 22, 2011 20:02:14 GMT -8
First off, it must be understood that Bonhoeffer only began to lean toward pacificism in about 1930, under the influence of his friend Jean Lasserre. But I'm not sure he ever became a "five point" pacifist. He himself was torn over his decision to aid in Hitler's assassination. He seems to have seen it as the lesser of two evils and he was willing to bear the responsibility of it if it did turn out to be sin.
Bonhoeffer upheld the rights of the state as long as the state fulfilled it's biblical mandate to restrain evil. But once the state not only failed to do that but then actively encouraged evil and began its pograms of extermination, it tipped the balance completely and Bonhoeffer felt no longer required to submit to its authority in immoral areas.
I'm not a pacifist, so I don't hold it against him. I do think it would be a tremendously difficult decision to make as a Christian- one that no one should make lightly. But I can see his logic and I think I might very well have made the same decision before God. I believe he likened the decision to where Paul says, "I could wish myself cut off for Christ for the sake of the Jewish people".
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Post by atheist jon on Sept 25, 2011 22:05:55 GMT -8
I've always thought that World War II is a truly fascinating period of history with so many aspects to it in so many different arenas.
I have not read any of Bonhoeffer's works but I know of him because I find the period from the assassination attempt through to the end of the war particularly interesting, and it turned out that he figured quite largely in that. He seemed to be a good and extremely courageous man. He is an absorbing character and I would like to read something by him but I always felt his worldview would be so exclusively shaped by his religiosity that its origins would be lost on me. Would you know whether any of his books deal with more secular themes?
If the assassination attempt of Hitler had been successful and Bonhoeffer had gone on to live a full life until his natural death, I wonder how he would have felt about his participation and how he would have addressed it in his later years.
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Post by Josh on Sept 26, 2011 10:06:12 GMT -8
I'd highly recommend this biography, but as for original bonhoeffer works, most are pretty heady theology even by Christian standards. Perhaps u might like his "letters from prison"?
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Post by Josh on Sept 26, 2011 20:19:29 GMT -8
I liked this quote on page 248:
"[Bonhoeffer] knew something was deeply wrong with the church as it then existed... with the current form of Christianity in Germany in general. He felt that what was especially missing from the life of Christians in Germany was the day-to-day reality of dying to self, of following Christ with every ounce of one's being in every moment, in every part of one's life. This dedication and fire existed among pietist groups like teh Herrnhuter, but he thought they bordered on being "works" oriented and overly "religious"... They had pushed away from the "world" too much, had pushed away the very best of culture and education in a way that he didn't feel was right. Christ must be brought into every square inch of the world and the culture, but one's faith must be shining and bright and pure and robust. It must be free of cant and "phraseology" and mere religiosity, or the Christ whom one was bringing into the world and the culture was not Christ at all, but a tawdry man-made counterfeit. Bonhoeffer advocated a Christianity that seemed too worldly for traditional Lutheran conservatives and too pietistic for theological liberals. He was too much something for everyone, so both sides misunderstood and criticized him."
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Post by stevekimes on Oct 2, 2011 16:25:59 GMT -8
Of course, I am a "five point" pacifist, and base that on Jesus' teachings, even as Bonhoeffer did. Again, my disappointment is his change. I think that he had it right in Discipleship, and while I recognize his struggle in changing his mind, I firmly believe that he went the wrong direction.
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Post by Josh on Oct 2, 2011 18:01:10 GMT -8
Which passages are you referring to?
I don't think Bonhoeffer was ever a thoroughgoing pacifist. All along he did affirm that there was such thing as a "just war"(even though Hitler's was not). Bonhoeffer didn't even criticize his brothers who went to the front instead of jail.
I'd love to discuss pacifism with you sometime. Start a thread? I just don't understand how complete pacifism can be maintained in light of Scripture or reason.
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Post by Josh on Oct 10, 2011 19:50:27 GMT -8
Finished the book last night. Great read. I'm thinking of doing a teaching on his life at some point (I did one years ago, but I've learned so much about him since then).
If anyone wants to borrow the book and you're in the area, let me know.
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