Becoming Independent/ Staying Dependent

[Josh]

This paradox came up last Sunday in our discussion of "Becoming Like a Little Child and Putting Away Childish Things".

The question could be put this way:

What does "growing up" in our faith look like? In what aspects (if any) might it entail us becoming more independent of God? And if it does, how do we reconcile this with the idea that God is the source of our strength In what ways or in what sense are we to always remain dependent on him?

Please throw out your thoughts and help me prepare for an upcoming teaching on this.

[Josh]

Let's put it this way. If you've been a Christian for a while now, can you identify certain "needs" you had in your relationship with God early on that you no longer feel for the most part?

[christopher]

Yes, one example is that I don't feel like I need as much discipleship and guidance in my faith as I did at first. But the less I need those things, the more I need the inner conviction of the Holy Spirit to keep me from becoming Luke warm .

[Josh]

Kinda like, as in:

1 John 2:27

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

This is a much misused verse, but it gets at the heart of what I think you're saying.


Another thing that I think God weans us off of is the need for signs. It becomes replaced with an increased ability to hear his Voice.

[Josh]

One particular aspect I hope to highlight is how the "voice of God"/ God's guidance tends to change as we mature in Christ, and how this embodies the paradox of remaining dependent/ growing independent from God.

[Josh]

Thoughts from Dallas Willard on this subject that I used in the teaching Sunday (audio is available on our website: www.aletheiacf.org/site/cpage.asp?sec_id=2432&cpage_id=7990&orderby=file_date&ascdesc=DESC&dlcat=&dlyear=

"There are reasons other than his displeasure why a specific word may not be forthcoming to us in a particular case. One of the major other reasons is that in general, it is God’s will that we ourselves should have a great part in determining our path through life. This does not mean that he is not with us. Far from it. God both develops and, for our own good, tests our character by leaving us to decide. He calls us to responsible citizenship in his kingdom by saying– in effect or in reality– as often as possible, “My will for you in this case is that you decide on your own.”

“We are dealing here with the essence of human personality as God has ordained it. A child cannot develop into a responsible, competent human being if he or she is always told what to do. Personality and character are in their very essence inner directedness. This inner directedness is perfected in redemption. Moreover, a child’s character cannot be known– even to himself– until he is turned loose to do what he wants. It is precisely what he wants and how he handles those wants that both reveal and make him the person he is.”“What we want, what we think, what we decide to do when the word of God does not come or when we have so immersed ourselves in him that his voice within us in not held indistinction from our own thoughts and perceptions– these show who we are: either we are God’s mature children, friends, and co-workers, or we are something less.”

“We cannot be groveling robots or obsequious, cringing sycophants and also be the children of God! Such creatures could never bear the family resemblence. A son or daughter is not their father’s toady, and toadying does not come from either humility or worship before the God and Father of Jesus Christ. To suppose so is to live within a morbid and anti-Christian view of who God is. ‘The humility that cringes in order that reproof may be escaped or favor obtained is as unchristian as it is profoundly immoral’”

[Josh]

We talked about how these things were true in the lives of the faithful throughout Scripture:

from God's will for Adam and Even, to Abraham and Moses as "friends of God", to Joshua and David being blessed "wherever they set foot" to Paul being allowed to add his own advice to the canon of Scripture.

We saw the paradox between remaining dependent on the "vine" and being encouraged to become independent in other ways, as we ask whatever we wish and to know our master's business as a friend and not a servant:

John 15:1-5

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
[/i]

[Josh]

Another great quote from Willard I forgot to mention on Sunday:

“Just as character is revealed only when we are permitted or required to do as we want, so also the degree and maturity of our faith are manifested only in cases where no specific command is given. It is not a great and mature faith that merely does what it is told. Rather– in the words of William Carey as he went out to India as a pioneer missionary– such a faith is one that “attempts great things for God and expects great things for God”. It actively gets on with the work to be done, the life to be lived, confident in the good-hearted companionship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Human initiative is not canceled by redemption; it is heightened by immersion in the flow of God’s life. People with mature vision of God and extensive experience in his ways have no need to be obsessively anxious about doing the right thing. For the most part they will simply know what is right. But their confidence is finally not in a word from the Lord but in the Lord who is with us.”

[Douglas]

One example that has struck me many times is from the old testament. Joshua if i remember as well a other place. In the Douglas paraphrased version is reads, "the nation remained faithful until the first generation of leaders died and then they turned from the Lord." This idea is repeated many times, me as fathers whether spiritual of physical have a responsibility to train our children to be able to make the right decision when we are gone. if God desires us to teach this to our children and disciples it would make sense that he would want the same thing from us as well. Like Willard says "A child’s character cannot be known– even to himself– until he is turned loose to do what he wants." In my own life God at several points has removed his direction and told me to choose. These have been some of the most pivotal points in my life.