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Post by Josh on Sept 28, 2010 21:03:27 GMT -8
If you have doubts about whether abortion is murder, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this.
Part I
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Post by Josh on Sept 28, 2010 21:03:34 GMT -8
Part II
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Post by moritz on Sept 29, 2010 2:59:20 GMT -8
If you have doubts about whether abortion is murder, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this. I don't have doubts that abortion isn't murder, still I’m wondering how this speech is supposed to change anyone’s opinion about abortion. We get to see an emotional and (understandably) embittered woman, using drastic, lofty language without any substantial content. She is playing the emotional card mixed up with questionable personal interpretations of events and overblown appeals ("we're in a battle of life vs. death"! or “men, you are made for greatness” – puhaha). But she is offering no argument. Neither does she show how abortion is murder (let alone a holocaust)* nor does she give objective reasons of why it is a bad thing to begin with. All she does is reveal her very subjective stance. For Christians, who already reject abortion, this testimony may come along as a great affirmation of their own views, but how in the world is this woman with madness in her eyes ("I'm hoping to be hated" - wow, how impressive! lol) supposed to convince anybody who is not sharing her worldview? Seeing this is rather driving me further away from anti-abortionists than pulling me towards them. Josh, I’m a bit confused about why you posted this. What did you think this schmaltzy-embarrassing speech would cause? Maybe I’ve overseen something. I worry that if you believe this would have an effect on people like me, you haven’t gotten anything of what I was saying in the other related threads.  *see my rejection of this assertion in the abortion thread. |
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Post by Josh on Sept 29, 2010 16:56:54 GMT -8
I don't have doubts that abortion isn't murder, Then I guess you're not the audience the question was intended for  First off, I was simply wondering what people's responses were be, not putting this forward as a showcase of rational argument for the pro-life stance. However, I do think the moral and emotion force of this message is compelling. Your use of the phrase "emotional card" is dismissive of the real emotional content, as if you think it's contrived. In my opinion, she is tapping into important, primal, and powerful emotions of moral outrage that is necessary (and enlightening) because society has become so deadened to this issue. I don't think her "overblown appeals" to the war we're in or the silent holocaust are overblown at all. They aren't hyperbole. If anything they are still underblown by virtue of the fact that we aren't nearly as irate as she is. You may not think you were made for greatness, but I'll take the bait. Mo, are you immune to anything that is not cold, calculated argument? There is no lack sound reasoning in the best examples of the pro-life argument, but this, a personal testimony with moral force, is pretty rare, and, to me, amazing to watch. If a civil rights crusader had said they were hoping to be hated, would you have the same reaction? It wasn't "aimed" at you (I could have guessed your response). But guaranteed, there are many people who would change their opinion on the subject based on this testimonial. |
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Post by moritz on Sept 30, 2010 4:08:35 GMT -8
I don't have doubts that abortion isn't murder, Then I guess you're not the audience the question was intended for Probably not. But who was the question intended for? There are not many abortion-skeptics around these parts… Anyway, I want to upgrade the statement you quoted above because as I pointed out several times in the “abortion thread” I do believe that abortion is murder once the fetus is viable without organic connection to the mother (which was obviously the case here). That’s one more reason why the testimony of this person is a rather disadvantageous example for the anti-slavery side – at least when it comes to debating my reasoning. However, I do think the moral and emotion force of this message is compelling. You’re entitled to your subjective perspective as much as I’m entitled to think that it isn’t compelling at all. Your use of the phrase "emotional card" is dismissive of the real emotional content, as if you think it's contrived. It’s not intended this way. I’m sure her emotions about the issue are real. But this is obviously not an ad hoc speech but a designed one, so she must have put some calculus into it. After all, she wants to reach people, doesn’t she? In my opinion, she is tapping into important, primal, and powerful emotions of moral outrage that is necessary (and enlightening) because society has become so deadened to this issue. I can agree with the assertion that it is valid to emotionally point out what one perceives to be immorality in order to pull people out of their comfort zones. However, her perception of morality is subjective and doesn’t tell us anything about the truth. So if there’s no substantiation, there is little I can do with her outrage. I don't think her "overblown appeals" to the war we're in or the silent holocaust are overblown at all. They aren't hyperbole. But of course they are hyperbole. They represent the classic Christian bipolar worldview with a visual angle of about 3 degrees. Black and white, with me, or against me. Such drastic simplifications are actually an insult of intelligence and reason. Reality is very complex. What about eating organic stuff? It is undeniable that plants and animals are living things. Is it appropriate to say that those who eat salad are on the side of death? If that isn’t hyperbole… “Ladies and gentlemen, please choose sides”! I think the name for this fallacy was “excluded middle”. You may not think you were made for greatness, but I'll take the bait. You’re such a hero! I have a vision of you standing on a lonely hill in the first rays of the morning sun, the American flag reflecting in your determined eyes to the distant sound of a lone military trumpet... Joshua Coles – destined for greatness! Wow! You yanks got a soft spot for cheesy crap stuff like that, don’t you?  It reminds me of my “Hollywood and Christianity” thread by the way. (Please feel free to make fun of me when you are sipping Pina Colada in heaven while I'm roasting in hell  ) Mo, are you immune to anything that is not cold, calculated argument? First off: that rational argumentation is something cold is your subjective interpretation. Besides, rational argumentation doesn’t have to come without emotions. Secondly, I have to ask again what kind of effect you expect this to have on people. Sure I’m not immune towards emotional appeals. The speech did trigger compassion. It’s terrible when you are not only not wanted as a Baby but when your parents don’t want you so badly that they decide to take such drastic measures as an abortion in the midst of the eighth (!!!) month, and then desert you having left you partly physically (and probably mentally) disabled! Can I relate to her bitterness? Absolutely. This woman is a wretch no matter how often she’ll repeat to herself that she’s the Lords little princess. That’s certainly heartbreaking. But beyond that? If we are supposed to change our views based on emotional speeches, we would have to flip-flop every day several times given all the different causes (which are often diametrically opposed to each other). Maybe the abortion doctor who considers abortion to be his passion can deliver heart wrenching speeches as well of how he relieved desperate women through his work and dedication. And speaking of holocausts: One who certainly was a master in delivering emotionally inflaming speeches was a certain Mr. Hitler… Well, I’d much rather be a cold rationalist than a manipulable tool (you see, I can play the black and white thing too ). If a civil rights crusader had said they were hoping to be hated, would you have the same reaction? I think this “hoping to be hated” thing is nothing but cheap, cynical garbage-rethoric and I don’t care if it’s an anti-abortionist, a Civil Rights crusader, an atheist or whoever using it. Why would anybody hope to be hated? How is this supposed to help the cause? That sounds a bit masochistic to me. She could say she knows she’ll be hated, but she should rather hope to be compelling. Apart of appearing fake and pseudo-brave, this martial “the more haters the merrier” attitude is totally useless and perhaps even destructive to the own cause. It wasn't "aimed" at you (I could have guessed your response). But guaranteed, there are many people who would change their opinion on the subject based on this testimonial. Bring them on, I want to talk to them And frankly, I believe she is putting as many potential brothers in arms off as she winning over. After all I’m not pro-abortion. But I don’t want to be associated with embarrassing loonies like her. |
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Post by Josh on Sept 30, 2010 16:30:23 GMT -8
Keep in mind we have a much higher viewership than those who actually post. Often I find myself making posts in order to draw new folks into the discussion (with varying degrees of success :  You are right that such a "testimony" is more directly applicable to late term abortions (though I don't think limited to). I assumed you meant "anti-abortion" and not slavery (two discussions at once can be a bit hard to keep straight  ). I guess this hinges on whether one believes that in general humanity has a built in sense of morality even apart from rational argument. I do believe that, so I think there are non-rational ways to "wake it up", as it were. First off, the reason I say there aren't hyperbole is because as Christians we do believe there is a spiritual struggle going on "behind the scenes" that is actually more real than any physical battle. I do not think the Christian view of the spiritual struggle is simplistic or black and white.... at least not in the ways I think you think it is. I'd like to take this up on a different thread. So give me a bit of time to do that. It's interesting to note that you seem to think that because I have a "romantic" view of reality that that somehow translates to me being arrogant. Maybe your misguided understanding of humility is keeping you from something wonderful, Mo, like namely, seeing your life as a purposeful adventure with incredible stakes and epic struggles. You make some great comments in the last half of your post that I want to respond to (I think you're going to find some agreement and even back-tracking from me). So stay tuned. |
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Post by moritz on Sept 30, 2010 23:41:31 GMT -8
I assumed you meant "anti-abortion" and not slavery (two discussions at once can be a bit hard to keep straight ). Haha, of course. If you only knew how many times I mixed up the terms abortion and abolition while writing the last post... I thought I had cleaned it all up but apparently something slipped through... ;D |
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Post by Kirby on Oct 1, 2010 8:00:52 GMT -8
BEST...LINE...EVER. I'm making it my tagline or whatever you call it.
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Post by Josh on Oct 1, 2010 21:46:09 GMT -8
Fair enough. Your analysis just seemed too cold to me. A case in point:
A wretch? Really? Through worldly eyes, perhaps by some measures. But it's hard for me to hear what sounds like mockery of child of God.
1 Samuel 16:7
The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart”
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
Luke 12:6-7
6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
On another note, I'm going to concede to you that "hoping to be hated" is a lot different than "willing to be hated" for a noble cause. It was a counter-productive thing for her to say.
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Post by christopher on Oct 2, 2010 5:53:44 GMT -8
I think both of you may be missing her point. I don't believe she is wanting to be hated for the cause per se. She is more likely saying that she hopes to be aligned with and share in the reputation of Jesus from the standpoint of the world. I've heard this sentiment many times in certain circles. It's usually taken a sign that you're on the right side:
Luke 21:16-19
16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.
NKJV
John 15:18-20
18 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
NKJV
Many Christians look at these verses and conclude to be a good Christian, you should be hated by those outside the faith. However, I think they are mistaken, because it was the religious community that hated Jesus and I believe that it was they who Jesus was referring to. |
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Post by Josh on Oct 2, 2010 9:54:57 GMT -8
Matthew 5: 11
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
Jesus even said we should rejoice when persecuted.
However, I think the "hoping for it" is not what he meant. The gal in the video could have said it better, but it's easy to criticize and much harder to be so vocal.
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Post by moritz on Oct 6, 2010 3:35:45 GMT -8
I guess this hinges on whether one believes that in general humanity has a built in sense of morality even apart from rational argument. I do believe that, so I think there are non-rational ways to "wake it up", as it were. No, it doesn’t hinge on whether we believe in built in morality or not but on whether morality really is built in universally. If it was, I would expect to resonate positive to her emotions. But I don't. The evidence is abundant, that people usually don’t agree on morality (abortion is a prime example). And where they do agree, there are sound explanations for it that get along without a cosmic meaning of good and evil. We’ve had this discussion. First off, the reason I say there aren't hyperbole is because as Christians we do believe there is a spiritual struggle going on "behind the scenes" that is actually more real than any physical battle. I do not think the Christian view of the spiritual struggle is simplistic or black and white.... at least not in the ways I think you think it is. I’m waiting for your substantiation in the other thread. It's interesting to note that you seem to think that because I have a "romantic" view of reality that that somehow translates to me being arrogant. Arrogant? No. Naïve is the word. Or childish. But not arrogant. Maybe your misguided understanding of humility is keeping you from something wonderful, Mo, like namely, seeing your life as a purposeful adventure with incredible stakes and epic struggles. You can aggrandize the reality of your life to cosmic significance if that makes you feel better at the end of the day (what a sad thought: opium for the masses, was it?) but please don’t worry about me. I’m pretty satisfied with my life. A wretch? Really? Through worldly eyes, perhaps by some measures. But it's hard for me to hear what sounds like mockery of child of God. I don’t insist on her being wretched. I don’t know her at all. It’s just the impression I got from listening to her. I take it back if you like. However, the impression is there, so why not communicate it? On another note, I'm going to concede to you that "hoping to be hated" is a lot different than "willing to be hated" for a noble cause. It was a counter-productive thing for her to say. Cool. BEST...LINE...EVER. I'm making it my tagline or whatever you call it. Many Christians look at these verses and conclude to be a good Christian, you should be hated by those outside the faith. I do think I got her message. I just find it silly. If she is seeking support against abortion she should better hope to sign up people outside the faith instead of annoying them. |
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Post by carebear on Oct 11, 2010 7:15:01 GMT -8
I listened to this last week, and I can't recall exact statements, but I remember a few things that stuck out to me.
She stated her disgust about how the women's rights movement is promoting the abortions of female babies in the name of female rights. Good point.
And how ironic it is that many women claim their reason for abortion was because the fetus was disabled in some way....and yet the act of abortion caused Gianna's disability.
So IRONIC!
I think it is good to be vocal about what abortion really is and discuss it. But ultimately I think the Spirit of God will convict whoever wants to listen.
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Post by Josh on Oct 11, 2010 18:29:02 GMT -8
The existence of universal moral values doesn't mean we won't disagree on particular details or prioritization of competing values (we all value life but we disagree on which life value to prioritize) or that some of us won't simply get it wrong. We've had this discussion But in this case, I do think that most people know intuitively that abortion is wrong on some level. O.K. Whew. So you don't think I'm being arrogant. I was gonna say! So now it's clear that it's you who is being arrogant (just kidding) Carebear's post makes me think that with a little polishing, there are several good arguments that could be gleaned from this gal's speech. |
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