Forces - Natural vs. Supernatural

[sonlyte]

I have pondered an idea for more than a decade now concerning the difference between the natural and the supernatural. Science seems to be concerned with the natural forces and through our classifications, natural forces by definition are independent from God's direct working.
Here is my problem: What is a force? We can not see or in any way directly perceive a force, we can only see its effect. So how do we know that it is anything other than the will of God acting consistently in a given way.?
The four basic natural forces have been categorized by science: electromagnetism, weak nuclear forces, strong nuclear forces, and gravity. These forces are important to us and we interact with them directly or indirectly every day. The understanding of these forces comes from observation on scales of magnitude varying from the size of the universe to the size of sub-atomic particles.
I wonder if this is it however.
What if, there is a reality which extends many orders of magnitude beyond what we can currently perceive. What if sub atomic particle are a complex interaction of smaller and smaller "things" What if in the continued exploration we find that on extremely small orders of magnitude there are other forces at work which could not be identified because of the extreme difference in scale from us.
In math, micro scales such as differentials don't follow all the laws of mathematics because addition and subtraction in their basic forms have little relevance to such small numbers.
My guess is that mathematics will find the same thing on macro scales; axioms which govern numbers of such extreme scales that simple arithmetic is irrelevant. My guess is also that science will find the same.
Centuries ago, people would have attributed some scientific truths to the miraculous working of God, and I don't think that they would have been mistaken. The movement of the planets through the sky was considered supernatural, and then through the observations of Copernicus and Galileo, and the mathematics of Isaac Newton, we have reasonably explained the movement of the planets using an understanding of gravity and a heliocentric system.
But does this in any way take away from the fact that God is holding those planets in motion through his steady pull? I don't believe it does. Is the force of gravity independent of God? Or does it require his eternal and constant attention? We will never truly know, because if God is consistent, if he never blinks his attention, the force of gravity will appear to work independent of him.
I did not intend to start a dissertation here so I will just conclude the proposal and leave it to your comments for now.

[Josh]

Colossians 1:17

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

I find your thoughts here fascinating and related to reflections I've had about the nature ofmiracles (elsewhere on the forums)

I've never been fond of a strict dichotomy between the laws of nature and the miraculous hand of God. Don't we fundamentally have to believe that down deep everything is miraculous? I think what you're suggesting breaks down that rigid separation.

Perhaps mankind, in figuring out how God usually works on a surface level, temporarily missed the deeper mysteries of His involvement with the Creation and the "laws of nature".

Perhaps in a very real sense the OT prophets weren't just being poetic when they spoke of God sending rain and thunderstorms, etc.. Perhaps such phrases don't just indicate a causal relationship of a million degrees but somehow, though we've identified how on the surface those things occur, God is intimately involved on the most fundamental level.

Great stuff to chew on.

[sonlyte]

Thanks for the comment!

That is a good quote from Colossians.

There is another on in Psalm 104 that I remember, let me find it real quick...
Nevermind, that was something else, I was thinking of Hebrews "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word"

[Douglas]

Sonlyte,

I remember talking about this with you back in high school. I think that you have expressed it here better than i have ever heard it expressed. i truly wish that i could push past my western scientific mindset and really understand the intimate role that God takes in the maintaining and minute to minute administration of his creation. i think that i would live the rest of my life in utter amazement.

i am reading a book written by a missionary who spent many years in Africa. It is his relating of the African spiritual view of life and it has been very challenging. I hope to post some of it when i get a chance because it relates very closely to this discussion. The African sees first the spiritual cause and second (if at all the physical). I struggle with this and my western brain rebells against it. But if as you wrote about is true and the really reason that we see the world that we do is directly related to the hand of God immediately present at all moments in the administration of his creation then perhaps the African has a more accurate perception of reality than my own in many regards.

I have only just begun to grapple with this so my thoughts are very incomplete but i am excited to see where the path leads.

Blessings,

Douglas