What is "Sin unto death"? 1John 5:16

[christopher]

I thought this topic deserved it's own thread.

In another thread Josh wrote:

1 John 5:16-18
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

What is this “sin that leads to death” over which we shouldn’t even bother to pray? Well, considering the other passages we’ve looked at, I think it’s solid to conclude that it is none other than the sin of unrepentance/ rejection of Christ’s blood. While a person remains in this sin, there is no hope of repentence (by it’s very nature). God will not twist such a person’s arm; neither should we.

So, Chris, you want to give your spin on this passage?

I prefer the older translations (ASV for NU, KJV for TR) of this verse (unto death), because there are no words inserted to cloud the issue with the translators bias.

1 John 5:16-1816 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
KJV

Every other translation inserts the word “leading” or “leads to” which is not in the text at all (if your translation is honest, it will make this point by italicization )

There are a number of views I’ve come across about what “sin unto death” means. Here are just a few:

1. Sins committed that carry capital punishment by common law (murder, treason, etc). I don’t think this likely because why would John tell his readers not to pray for that person. They could still repent before execution and be saved.

2. Sins in the Jewish law which were punishable by death (murder, blaspheme, etc). But why would he even mention this to his readers since the new covenant made “obsolete” the laws of the old (Heb 8).

3. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I hardly think his readers would make this connection or even know what that means. If John meant to say this, why wouldn’t he just say so and not leave it so vague for his readers.

4. Apostasy.

5. Sins committed after baptism. Many in the early church thought that sinning after baptism was spiritual suicide and was unforgivable. We now know this to be an absurd suggestion since NOBODY would be saved.

6. Mortal sins versus venial sins. This is the Catholic doctrine and dovetails purgatory which would say pray for those in purgatory who have not committed mortal sins. However, this is to be rejected because John specifically says “ If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death”

As evidenced by the multitude of opinions on it, this is a very difficult passage indeed. But the most sensible one to me is the one I’ve heard first from Steve Gregg (surprise, surprise). That “sin unto death” simply refers to unrepented sin by those who have already died. Conversely “sin not unto death” would be unrepented sin of those who are still alive and able to repent of it. That is not to say that those who have died with unrepented sin are necessarily lost, only that they have no opportunity in this life to repent and therefore need no prayer to do so. But those who are living and are trapped in sin need much prayer and God promises here that , for His part, He will administer all pressure to bring him to repentance through the prayers of others and …. “give them life” (assuming spiritual life). I believe the beginning of vs. 16 strongly suggests a present active on-going sin, and not just one of the past. I think this could apply to unbelievers, or those whose faith is “questionable” by their lifestyle.

So, with this perspective, the verse might be translated like this in the present vernacular:

16 If you know someone living in sin and not submitted to Christ, pray that they will be convicted and turn to Christ. God will hear and answer those prayers and give them life. However, I’m not saying you should pray for those who have already died. 17 All ungodliness is sin, but there’s always hope of repentance while a sinner is still alive. 18 We know that whoever is born again, does not live a life of sin, but children of God are self-disciplined and the devil cannot cause them to sin.

One thing is for sure, in order to obey this exhortation, we must be able to a) know the difference and b) recognize when someone is sinning unto death or not. I follow Steve on this point and believe it means simply sinning until death.

Here is a 16 minute commentary from Steve on the topic that you may find worth listening to:

www.audiodoctrine.com/downloads/1john_5_16-18_sin_unto_death.mp3

[robin]

wonderful explanation Chris. I agree entirely.

By the way, I noticed that you linked to audiodoctrine.com. Thats funny, because just earlier today I was browsing through your website and noticed that you have added some new commentaries (Lee Stobel, and Greg Koukl). There is allot of good stuff there, and I encourage everyone to take a look at it. Chris has done some very good work there.

Robin

[Josh]

I have yet to listen to the Steve clip- I plan on doing so- but two observations:

1. I'm not so sure that "unto" means anything different than "leading to" in English.

2. If the intention was as you say, why didn't John just say, "and don't pray for the unrepentant dead, it does no good".

Anyway, I'd like your interpreation to be true, but it seems a bit doubtful to me so far. But I'll listen to the clip.

[christopher]

No problem. Like I mentioned earlier, it's a very difficult passage to understand, and I'm sure God won't hold it against you for having the wrong interpretation. ;D

I would ask, however, exactly how do you know who to pray for and who not to pray for in your view? John seems to strongly imply that his readers would be able to distinguish the difference.

I pray for people all the time who seem hardened to God. If I'm being disobedient to this passage, I wouldn't know it. I'd rather err on the side of praying for the unrepentant while they're still living then not. Of course, I don't pray for those who died unrepentant. I leave that in God's hands and trust that He's infinitely just and merciful.

[yeshuafreak]

So, with this perspective, the verse might be translated like this in the present vernacular:


16 If you know someone living in sin and not submitted to Christ, pray that they will be convicted and turn to Christ. God will hear and answer those prayers and give them life. However, I’m not saying you should pray for those who have already died. 17 All ungodliness is sin, but there’s always hope of repentance while a sinner is still alive. 18 We know that whoever is born again, does not live a life of sin, but children of God are self-disciplined and the devil cannot cause them to sin.

this is one of the most sensible interpretations i have ever come across.

the law of moses is NOT made obsolete be the new cov't, as anyone who has talkeed to me knows is one of the strong views of min. however, we misunderstand the death penalty of the law. we westerners view it as a minimum punishment when it is really a limit to how much you can punish that peros for this sin. this is not the time for discussing this but i will definitley giev you proof for this view if you want it.

so i dont thik that that interpretation is very wrong, but as i said that penalty was a maximum. so which sins did the rabbis of the NT decide to carry out full punishment possible of? they decided that fornication, idolotry, and from murder (blood; sexual immorality; and food offered to idols mentioned in acts 15 suggest this, as well as other writings).

in other words, if they ruled the gov't these would be the only sins that would carry the penalty of death in most cases.

however, i dont think that this is what is being referred to here. i think that the most likely meaning is the sin of apostasy or blasphemy of the holy sprit; or what chris said. the above view would prbably come 3rd. that is why i didnt go so far in defending it.

shal0m- john

[ben]

If I keep hanging around with you guys, I am going to learn a bunch.

[Josh]

I have a different take on this passage. Here's a selection from a post of my on the larger question of whether one can "lose their salvation":

What is this “sin that leads to death” (1 John 5:1) over which we shouldn’t even bother to pray? Well, considering the other passages we’ve looked at, I think it’s solid to conclude that it is none other than the sin of unrepentance/ rejection of Christ’s blood. While a person remains in this sin, there is no hope of forgiveness (by it’s very nature). God will not twist such a person’s arm; neither should we.

Going back to the mention of the “impossibility of repentence” mentioned in Hebrews- it’s apparent that there is a line in the sand which a person can cross after deliberate rejection of Christ and the Holy Spirit after which it is impossible to turn back. But where exactly is that line? We can’t say—except that if a person in danger of this does repent, we know they haven’t crossed that line.

We need not live in fear of crossing this line as long as we still care in the first place. Jesus Himself was quite clear in John 6:37 that He would never turn away anyone who came to Him:

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Jesus is also willing, as He instructed his disciples to do, to forgive us over and over again (Matthew 18:21-22)