Post by Josh on Mar 14, 2007 19:31:56 GMT -8
I recently received this statement from someone interested in investigating the Preterist understanding of Eschatology:
"I am unable to defend this position [that we are currently in the Millennium of Revelation chapter 20] from [some friends] who are pointing out what appears to be valid arguments from scriptures pertaining to the 1,000 year reign. (Like Lion and lamb lying down together) [Isaiah 65] Maybe this is figurative, but I'm sensing that I should keep my study more to myself until I find out more how to defend it..."
So, in response, let's take a look at the passage referred to, which is Isaiah 65:18-25:
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD.
We have pictured here a glorious future for Israel, one in which their fortunes will dramatically improve, where God brings them success, longevity, prosperity, and peace.
But, say some, this passage can't be describing "the new heavens and the new earth" of Revelation 21 and 22 (the eternal state of the saved), because doesn't this passage state that although people would live long, there would still be death? Doesn't it also imply that children would be being born, which we know according to Jesus' word won't be happening in the "world to come"?
Because of these questions, most Futurists say that this passage must be referring to a future, earthly millennial reign of Christ from the physical city of Jerusalem for a thousand years, one in which Jesus brings a state of near (but not full) perfection to the world.
But here's where I'm going to have to ask your forgiveness for a bit of deceit, because I left out a very important verse in the passage above to prove an important point.
This whole passage section of Isaiah 65 begins not with verse 18, but rather with the all-important transitional verse 7. I will now reproduce the passage with verse 7 to begin:
17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD.
What's the context of this passage, then? Is it the millennial reign of Christ depicted in Revelation 20 Or isn't it, rather, the eternal state known as the "New Heavens and New Earth" described in Revelation 20 and 21 (and 2 Peter 3:10-15)?? It should be obvious.
Now, for some considerations:
If this passage is about the "eternal state" described in Rev. 20 and 21, then why does it imply that death will still be occurring to some degree? Why are the descriptions Isaiah gives so "physical" or "earthly" sounding?
According to Dr. Larry Pechawer (among others):
"The key to the language [in Isaiah 65]... is that the Old Testament prophet is describing God's "new creation" in terms of "ideal existence" as the ancient Hebrews would have envisioned it".
Actually, the passage doesn't really state anything but "hypotheticals" about death and birth in order to illustrate the glories of the New Heavens and Earth.
In verse 19 of this passage (see above), Isaiah says that "the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it [Jerusalem]* no more"**. Well, how can that be if there is actually death occurring? The answer must be that death is not occurring.
To cement this, check out another passage in Isaiah:
Isaiah 25:
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove the disgrace of his people
from all the earth.
The LORD has spoken.
The mountain here is Mt. Zion in Jerusalem. Clearly, during these "New Heavens and New Earth" there is actually no death, despite the hypothetical language.
In closing, I'd like to point out the problems with the view that this passage in Isaiah is talking about a future, earthly, political, millennial reign of Jesus. Futurist ideas of this millenium are quite outlandish: Christians who lived before the Tribulation are envisioned to be resurrected and living alongside 'mortals' with 'miraculously extended lifespans' who have lived through the Tribulation. Also, this Futurist vision of the millennium focuses on a physical state of Israel and a rebuilt Temple, things which the New Testament authors rejected in favor of the "Kingdom not of this world" (see my article "Israel and the Church"). I could say more, but that's enough for now.
Questions? Comments?
*It's important to note that to the Christian, the future, glorious "Jerusalem" described here is not an earthly city, but the Church itself, and the future abode of the Church. If you're not convinced on that, please read the article in this forum entitled "Israel and the Church".
** This verse is the parallel passage to another of John's descriptions of the eternal state in Rev. 21:4:
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
"I am unable to defend this position [that we are currently in the Millennium of Revelation chapter 20] from [some friends] who are pointing out what appears to be valid arguments from scriptures pertaining to the 1,000 year reign. (Like Lion and lamb lying down together) [Isaiah 65] Maybe this is figurative, but I'm sensing that I should keep my study more to myself until I find out more how to defend it..."
So, in response, let's take a look at the passage referred to, which is Isaiah 65:18-25:
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD.
We have pictured here a glorious future for Israel, one in which their fortunes will dramatically improve, where God brings them success, longevity, prosperity, and peace.
But, say some, this passage can't be describing "the new heavens and the new earth" of Revelation 21 and 22 (the eternal state of the saved), because doesn't this passage state that although people would live long, there would still be death? Doesn't it also imply that children would be being born, which we know according to Jesus' word won't be happening in the "world to come"?
Because of these questions, most Futurists say that this passage must be referring to a future, earthly millennial reign of Christ from the physical city of Jerusalem for a thousand years, one in which Jesus brings a state of near (but not full) perfection to the world.
But here's where I'm going to have to ask your forgiveness for a bit of deceit, because I left out a very important verse in the passage above to prove an important point.
This whole passage section of Isaiah 65 begins not with verse 18, but rather with the all-important transitional verse 7. I will now reproduce the passage with verse 7 to begin:
17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD.
What's the context of this passage, then? Is it the millennial reign of Christ depicted in Revelation 20 Or isn't it, rather, the eternal state known as the "New Heavens and New Earth" described in Revelation 20 and 21 (and 2 Peter 3:10-15)?? It should be obvious.
Now, for some considerations:
If this passage is about the "eternal state" described in Rev. 20 and 21, then why does it imply that death will still be occurring to some degree? Why are the descriptions Isaiah gives so "physical" or "earthly" sounding?
According to Dr. Larry Pechawer (among others):
"The key to the language [in Isaiah 65]... is that the Old Testament prophet is describing God's "new creation" in terms of "ideal existence" as the ancient Hebrews would have envisioned it".
Actually, the passage doesn't really state anything but "hypotheticals" about death and birth in order to illustrate the glories of the New Heavens and Earth.
In verse 19 of this passage (see above), Isaiah says that "the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it [Jerusalem]* no more"**. Well, how can that be if there is actually death occurring? The answer must be that death is not occurring.
To cement this, check out another passage in Isaiah:
Isaiah 25:
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove the disgrace of his people
from all the earth.
The LORD has spoken.
The mountain here is Mt. Zion in Jerusalem. Clearly, during these "New Heavens and New Earth" there is actually no death, despite the hypothetical language.
In closing, I'd like to point out the problems with the view that this passage in Isaiah is talking about a future, earthly, political, millennial reign of Jesus. Futurist ideas of this millenium are quite outlandish: Christians who lived before the Tribulation are envisioned to be resurrected and living alongside 'mortals' with 'miraculously extended lifespans' who have lived through the Tribulation. Also, this Futurist vision of the millennium focuses on a physical state of Israel and a rebuilt Temple, things which the New Testament authors rejected in favor of the "Kingdom not of this world" (see my article "Israel and the Church"). I could say more, but that's enough for now.
Questions? Comments?
*It's important to note that to the Christian, the future, glorious "Jerusalem" described here is not an earthly city, but the Church itself, and the future abode of the Church. If you're not convinced on that, please read the article in this forum entitled "Israel and the Church".
** This verse is the parallel passage to another of John's descriptions of the eternal state in Rev. 21:4:
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.