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Post by moritz on Nov 23, 2009 4:24:05 GMT -8
On my way to the Comarca Kuna Yala – a district of hundreds of scattered islands in the south-east of Panama – I was sitting in a small motorboat amidst a handful of indigenous people. Right next to me was a long haired man wearing artisan ornaments. The boat ride was long and at one point I observed him getting into some kind of meditation. Once he reopened his eyes a couple of minutes later I asked him what he had been doing and he told me, he’s able to cut off all noises around him if he concentrates.
I was impressed and so we got into a conversation in which he revealed to me that he, like his father, was a shaman. This information got me really interested and so I asked him if he could tell me something about the religion of the Kuna people and his own vocation.
He told me, that the shaman inherits a sixth sense from his father which allows him to communicate with the spirits of the deceased and have visions of the future. The visions appear in dreams of events to come. He told me he hardly ever remembers a dream but every time he does, the things he has seen happen shortly afterwards in reality. He also told me that the Gods of his religion are the big father sky and the big mother earth. I asked, if they communicated with him thorough signs or even spoke directly to him and he confirmed the latter. I was thrilled about that and wanted to know what they said and how but he let me know I was requesting sacred information he was not supposed to share. So we went on talking about traditions etc.
The boat went from island to island dropping off people and when it was his turn to leave, my last question was what he thought about other religions like Christianity. He answered he tolerates every religion but knows better.
We waved goodbye as the boat went on towards our destination and I pondered about what he had told me. I had to think of all the Christians and Muslims I know who claim to have been “made to know” beyond the shadow of a doubt. The revelations the shaman claims to have received are very powerful. He had direct encounters with the Gods, while pretty much everybody else I know is interpreting feelings.
I know this story doesn’t mean anything to you. You remain convinced of being the ones on the right track. But I think it actually should bother you. How is it possible, that the one and only God, who is jealous enough not to accept any Gods beside him, misleads people so intentionally and powerfully, making them believe firmly in other Gods? I wouldn’t expect anyone who had a direct revelation of the mentioned intensity to suddenly start believing something else. Why is God so deceiving? And how do you know you’re not being deceived as well?
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Post by Josh on Nov 23, 2009 13:00:51 GMT -8
1 Corinthians 1:22-24
Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Your post, which is an excellent question and definitely worth being troubled by if one is a believer, made me think of these words by Paul.
There are different ways people seek validation for their religious beliefs. Some seek out mystical paths (like the Jews Paul is referring to, or your shaman friend), some the rational (like the Greek philsophers or perhaps the modern atheist).
However, I think there is danger in only pursuing one of these at the expense of the other.
Mysticism by itself can lead quickly to illusion and self-deception when it becomes detached from any objective moorings.
Rationalism by itself only leaves room for what can be proven, and therefor is unable to apprehend some of the most central elements of human existence.
If I'm reading him right, Paul says Christians are preaching a blend of these two summed up in the life and death of the divine man Jesus Christ. He entered into real time and real space, not merely into a "mythos". Yet he calls us to faith beyond mere rationality.
I doubt your shaman acquaintance includes rationality in his pursuit of spirituality. If he does, I would ask him to defend his beliefs rationally. Other than his own subjective experience, he cannot point to objective historical or scientific evidence to bolster his beliefs.
Likewise, I don't think you can account for the totality of the human experience if you are wedded to materialism.
So, the reason I think Christianity has more epistemological clout that animism or hinduism, etc.. is because it can operate on both spheres of knowing.
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Post by Josh on Nov 23, 2009 13:21:56 GMT -8
As to your main question, whether or not God is deceiving...
Well, I suppose there are only 3 conclusions any of us can draw about your shaman or me or any believer.
Either they are completely wrong on their major claims, completely right, or partly right.
As a practical materialist you are pretty much bound to see the shaman as thoroughly wrong in regard to his outlook on the spiritual realm, don't you think?
However, I can conclude as a Christian, that either he is completely deceived (by another person or power or by himself) or partly decieved. I can also conclude that he may be heading away from the truth or actually toward the truth, seeing as how we are all on a spiritual journey in which we are getting some things wrong, some things right.
Perhaps your shaman, based on what he says, can also see Christians (and himself) in this latter light as well.
Why does God allow the "grayness"? That's a tough question. But I think He wants us to really exert ourselves in the quest for truth and meaning. He plays a pursposeful game of hide and seek in order to lure us away from our saftey nets, our sin, our pride, our laziness.
I have no doubt he is wooing your shaman whether his description of who is wooing him is accurate or not*. Just as I have no doubt that the darkness in his own heart and the counter-force of the Enemy are at work as well, as in all of our lives.
*and none of us has a completely accurate understanding of course, though I'd argue some have better understandings that others.
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Post by moritz on Nov 25, 2009 9:33:18 GMT -8
Other than his own subjective experience, he cannot point to objective historical or scientific evidence to bolster his beliefs. This is speculation on your part. It could be so, it could be different. I for one am not acquainted with the details of the Kuna belief system. However, my experience with believers of whatever religion is, that they always find some objective starting point on which to base the story they believe in. In the case of the shaman it could be the rationally observable fact that life (in the vast majority of cases) evolves from the physical merging of male and female, which makes a belief in a big father and a big mother more plausible in my opinion than the belief in a singular yet tripartite something letting life evolve from a word. I don’t even know if the shaman would argue that way, but this rationale isn’t too far removed from the objective evidence Christians are holding on to: The mere existence and execution of a man named Jesus some 2000 years ago. Every Christian claim concerning the supernatural (e.g. the resurrection, the performance of miracles, the entire divinity of the man, etc.) exceeds the objectively confirmable. And the evidence in form of first hand eyewitness reports for those crucial claims is considerably thin (we discussed this in Germany last summer, do you remember?). Muslims for example can also point to the fact that their historic figures lived. But when it comes to objectively confirming the event of the revelation Muhammad received, they run out of fuel. So, the reason I think Christianity has more epistemological clout that animism or hinduism, etc.. is because it can operate on both spheres of knowing. It barely can. Forgive me the redundancy but the essential Christian claims - the trinity, the resurrection, the atonement of sin by divine blood – escape historical or scientific verification. But this is a topic of its own. As a practical materialist you are pretty much bound to see the shaman as thoroughly wrong in regard to his outlook on the spiritual realm, don't you think? I don’t like the labels you are putting on me, as I theoretically don’t reject the possibility of the supernatural. However, of course I believe the shaman is thoroughly mistaken. But my estimation of the truth factor of his tale is only of peripheral importance for the question his story provoked. Of course: if he lied to me about his revelations, then the question of whether God is deceiving or not is solved (in this particular case). But I’m as unable to detect whether he was right, lied or was honestly mistaken as I am when confronted with the statement that somebody was “made to know” by God / Allah / Brahma / you name it. However, I can conclude as a Christian, that either he is completely deceived (by another person or power or by himself) or partly decieved. He could also be right. This is the crux. Chew on it.  I can also conclude that he may be heading away from the truth or actually toward the truth, seeing as how we are all on a spiritual journey in which we are getting some things wrong, some things right. Why does God allow the "grayness"? That's a tough question. But I think He wants us to really exert ourselves in the quest for truth and meaning. He plays a pursposeful game of hide and seek in order to lure us away from our saftey nets, our sin, our pride, our laziness. I don’t think this interpretation is coherent, as God’s first commandment is that there shall be no Gods beside him. A jealous God revealing himself as a concurrent deity is illogical. It is illogical because of the power such a revelation must have on an individual. I sometimes get the impression you are downplaying the significance of a personal revelation because you are well aware of the subjective problems that come with it. I generally appreciate that. But let’s not forget the gravity of the shaman’s claim: Why should a person who has been personally addressed by the Gods believe in anything else? Seriously, if I was personally and physically shaking hands with Jesus, why would I ever care about the objective counterevidence? It could only mean that it’s the truth or that I’m crazy and in the latter event I wouldn’t be able to separate objective truth from imaginary truth anyway. Given that the impact of such a revelation is extremely powerful on the individual and that we have no evidence for the Christian God rectifying a wooing game (“na na na na naaaaa naaaaa, I fooled you, it was me all along!!”) and that he wants to be worshipped and doesn’t accept competition, I conclude that your interpretation of God playing a trick on somebody in order to lure him out of his comfort zone (he actually seemed pretty comfortable and at ease with himself) is rather unlikely. And the forces of evil you referred to? I should also wonder why God would allow his evil creation to impersonate him. Especially if this impersonation drove away a sheep from the shepherd forever*. Even bigger is the problem for you: How do you know that you aren’t the one being mislead by the forces of evil, that try to keep you from the truth?? There’s no way for you to know. How can you be sure? If someone is honestly mistaken, I would also expect God to do something about it. How could he blame anyone at judgement day if that person couldn’t have known better? Yet, there is no evidence for divine interference, otherwise there wouldn’t be such a huge amount of people believing in other religions and never converting to Christianity. The footnote below applies here as well. Either way I look at it, it makes no sense. Unless of course you are all mistaken - which happens to be what I believe  *You could say that we don’t know that. Perhaps God at some point does interfere and rectify things even if it is on the deathbed. Sure, but again, we have no objective evidence for this. And it doesn’t make much sense either, because God wants to be loved and worshipped by the living. So why wait for the last breath? |
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Post by Josh on Nov 25, 2009 17:25:24 GMT -8
Granted. The poor guy isn't even here to defend himself  . I'm making my statements based on what knowledge I have of animistic belief systems. Be back with more responses.... |
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Post by Josh on Nov 25, 2009 22:19:18 GMT -8
Obviously I have my disagreements with what you're saying here, but those are better served on some of the more relevant threads.
Sorry. I know you don't, but that's why I said you were a "practical materialist". What i meant was that although you leave room that materialism could be mistaken, it seems to be your default position. If that is wrong, let me know.
I did when I said:
It's a possibility- an extremely minute one in my mind, but a possibility.
I think you misunderstood me a bit. I wasn't saying that God was revealing himself as another deity. Actually, I had temporarily forgotten that your shaman was hearing direct voices. My point was actually that some of the things he believes are true and some false, and that God is wooing him through the true things.
As to the voice speaking to him, from a Christian perspective I'd probably conclude one of three things:
1. He's hearing something valid from God but twisting it in some significant ways, or
2. He's hearing something from the enemy.
3. He's merely hearing what he wants to hear from his own psyche.
You and I share a doubt of the subjective experience because we know that people all around the globe have contradictory subjective religious experiences. You probably doubt subjective religious experience much more than I do, but still we see a problem with using them to establish objective truth claims.
But I have had experiences in which I was certain God was speaking to me, but I still care about objetive counterevidence, because I know that subjective experience is not foolproof.
I never said God was playing a trick, although I really sympathize with why you would see it that way.
I would actually expect that someone like your shaman would have a similar view of his gods and their mysterious ways- leading us on with riddles and whispers (even if they sometimes seem to speak clearly).
Firstly, you do know that Scripture does at least teach that this does occur, right?
2 Cor. 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.
Beyond that, this question is no different really than the question of why God allows suffering and evil in general if the costs are so high.
I don't think he will blame anyone who couldn't have known better. But the question is- can they know better or not?
This is why subjective religious experience cannot be the only prop to support one's faith on, imo. External objective evidence helps ensure a well-placed faith.
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. I'm making my statements based on what knowledge I have of animistic belief systems.