Is God illogical?

[Josh]

Josh wrote:Logically, and philosophically, God cannot love and be unable to love if you define the word love consistently in the statement nor any other of the opposites you ascribe.

yeshuafreak wrote:god is obviously illogical. this is true for most philosophical and religious systems. god is the proposition and negation of that proposition because he is everything. i wont get into what god is here though.

[Josh]

Logic is an objective universal. For instance, in no conceivable universe can there be a square circle. The law of non-contradiction exists in every conceivable reality. God cannot break the rules of logic because the rules of logic define the reality He created.

God cannot be illogical ultimately. He can defy some aspects of human logic because we are finite beings unable to grasp the entirety of reality, but God is not illogical from His own perspective or from a hypothetical God-like observers perspective.

[yeshuafreak]

God cannot break the rules of logic because the rules of logic define the reality He created

so because the law of gravity exists in the realm that god created, he is defined by that law? i think not.

God cannot be illogical ultimately. He can defy some aspects of human logic because we are finite beings unable to grasp the entirety of reality, but God is not illogical from His own perspective or from a hypothetical God-like observers perspective.

from his perspective he is most definitely NOT illogical. however, from our perspective the nirguna brahman is nothing less than illogical. (Ishavara is logical because that is God with our limitations projected onto that intepretation).

logic as we know it IS human logic. the law of non-contradiction applies to everything, but god exists outside of everything firstly and secondly, he does not contradict himself on his own realm. (theoretically).

The law of non-contradiction exists in every conceivable reality.

see above



shalom

[Kirby]

He can defy some aspects of human logic because we are finite beings unable to grasp the entirety of reality, but God is not illogical from His own perspective or from a hypothetical God-like observers perspective.

Agreed

logic as we know it IS human logic. the law of non-contradiction applies to everything, but god exists outside of everything firstly and secondly, he does not contradict himself on his own realm. (theoretically).

Also agreed.

I would argue that God is completely illogical, at least by our perspective. Further, I think faith in God is illogical--and that is what makes it faith. Does God have to logical for you Josh? Can you not accept something that is illogical? Spock teaches us about this in Star Trek II - IV: What is most logical may not conform to what is most reasonable.

[Josh]

so because the law of gravity exists in the realm that god created, he is defined by that law? i think not.

The law of gravity is merely an approximation. It's not nearly as objective as the law of non-contradiction or other statements of pure logic.


Perhaps we're talking past each other here.

I think you guys are defining "logic" as human reasoning.

I'm not. I'm talking very specifically about that absolutely unambigious discipline that philosophers call pure logic.
Believe it or not, there are some self-evident truths that all philosophers agree on. These are things that can't not be true.

An example of a self-evident truth that is true anywhere and for anyone (including God):

It is impossible for the something to be and not be at the same time in the same manner.

Furthermore, though God might appear to be illogical to us in many respects, I"m arguing that ultimately He Himself cannot be illogical.

[yeshuafreak]

ultimately he cannot. i agree. however, he IS illogical on our scale like we have agreed upon. he is an illogical being, not in his realm but ours.

so my argument is that in his realm- or rather, not-realm -he exists without contradction. however, from this realm he CAN be and not be because his logic is higher than ours. in other words, our logic does not apply to him. nothing that we think about him can truly describe him.

like i said before, a word cannot describe a color much less God. even experience and thought cannot grasp the concept of God- we have to understand him in symbolic terms.

shalom

[Josh]

Looks like we've made some progress toward agreement and understanding.

One caveat, though, is that if one holds that Yeshua was indeed the Inarnate God, then we do have a situation in which God Himself can in some sense be touched, be understood as having a personality akin to ours, even having weaknesses like ours.

I know you don't hold to the deity of Christ as I do. But you'd have to admit that if Jesus is God then this does add a whole other layer to the "knowableness of God".

[rbbailey]

God is completely illogical, unless you realize that all logic comes from Him.

[robcantrell11]

Nov 7, 2009 21:50:24 GMT -8 Josh said:

An example of a self-evident truth that is true anywhere and for anyone (including God):

It is impossible for the something to be and not be at the same time in the same manner.

This is awesome. It reminds me of the early Zen masters - specifically Bodhidharma, the so-called Father of Zen Buddhism, although I'm sure he would laugh at that title. He was a great proponent of moving beyond mind to get to the essence of something. I've written before about this, and I'll quote Bodhidharma here:

"Using the mind to look for reality is delusion. Not using the mind to look for reality is awareness. Freeing oneself from words is liberation. Remaining unblemished by the dust of sensation is guarding the Dharma."

To say the God is beyond or bound by anything seems to a little illogical - but that is just my gut sense. I see what yeshuafreak is getting at when he talks about how God can be beyond logic, but I think it is a stretch to say he is illogical. And like rbbailey says All logic comes from Him. Since God is the source of everything - except for perhaps evil, but that is another thread(rib to Josh and yeshuafreak - as an aside I can't even post in that thread anymore, too much to talk about) - since He is the source, then perhaps He can act outside the bounds of logic. But that doesn't mean he is illogical. Physicists can conceive of parallel universes where the laws of nature might be completely different than they are in ours - but that doesn't mean there would not be sets of laws. Perhaps the law of non-contradiction does exist in every reality, but if anyone can step outside of this law it is the lawmaker. I understand that if we were to concede that God can break even the laws of logic then it would be possible that He could do anything, and according to the Judeo-Christian ideals there has to be an orderly God, and not a trickster God like Loki or the Fool in the Arcane Tarot.

Still, I think it is a stretch to say that God is illogical. The laws of non-contradiction being the basis of understood logic, then yes, God cannot exist and not-exist at the same time. As a Buddhist, though, there is a category even beyond being and non-being, and that is Enlightenment, and that, my friends, is illogical. That is why the Zen masters use illogical - koans and what-not - to jar the logical mind of the student past his own mind and into awareness. In the heart of Samadhi - complete awareness - there is no being and non-being. I guess we could stretch this to the infinite Mind of God as well - some ancient philosophers did see the totality as nil, simply because in an infinite expanse in all direction where there is no duality there is not 1 - there is none. This is not necessarily an adequate argument against the law of non-contradiction, just a thought point.

[Josh]

To say the God is beyond or bound by anything seems to a little illogical - but that is just my gut sense.

Here's my take on this:

When I say God is "bound" to the "law of noncontradiction", for example, I don't see it as a limitation of his omnipotence. I see that "law" as simply part of his nature and He cannot be untrue to His own nature, just like it's impossible for Him to lie or sin.

As to whether God is "beyond", I'd submit this.

Eastern religious traditions are very into the "immanence" of God and western traditions tend to focus on the "transcendance" of God.

However, I think Christianity spans the gap.

Ephesians 4:6

...one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Acts 17:28a

'For in him we live and move and have our being.'

Colossians 1:15-17

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Isaiah 55:8-9

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

It has been said that to affirm God's transcendence and deny his immanence is to arrive at deism. To deny his transcendence and affirm his immanence is to arrive at pantheism. But Christianity holds to both.

[robcantrell11]

I like

[yeshuafreak]

But you'd have to admit that if Jesus is God then this does add a whole other layer to the "knowableness of God".

definitely. this means that he would have to come down on this level. he emptied himself in his kenosis according to the old christology i adhered to. so i would say he emptied himself of his supreme logic for a lesser one to communicate with the beings with lesser logic.

but i am only debating by your terms. like you mentioned i dont hold to christs deity.

Enlightenment, and that, my friends, is illogical. That is why the Zen masters use illogical - koans and what-not - to jar the logical mind of the student past his own mind and into awareness.

i agree but disagree. i hold that they are giving you logical statements that dont fit with the current set of logic rules that we belong with. enlightenment is a higher logic, not one created or projected by the mind which is governed by the ego intellect and will.

the Lord our God is not bound by a set of rules yet he is.
the alpha and omege
beg and end
first and last
open and closed
yin and yang
passive and active
etc.

he IS who he IS. He Is the I AM.

So to answer the threads questions: yes and no. both simultaneously.



btw josh i love your last post

shalom

[Josh]

"Reason is always reasonable, even in the last limbo, in the lost borderland of things. I know that people charge the Church with lowering reason, but it is just the other way. Alone on earth, the Church makes reason really supreme. Alone on earth, the Church affirms that God himself is bound by reason"

The other priest raised his austere face to the spangled sky and said, "Yet who knows if in that infinite universe--?"

"Only infinite physically," said the little priest, turning sharply in his seat, "not infinite in the sense of escaping from the laws of truth.

Reason and justice grip the remotest and lonliest star. Look at those stars. Don't they look as if they were single diamonds and sapphires? Well, you can imagine any mad botany or geology you please. Think of forests of adamant and leaves of brilliants. Think the moon is a blue moon, a single elephantine sapphire. But don't fancy that all that frantic astronomy would make the smallest difference to reason and justice of conduct. On plains of opal, under cliffs cut out of pearl, you would still find a notice-borad, 'Thou shalt not steal'"

Father Brown, G.K. Chesterton