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Post by Josh on Aug 26, 2009 11:08:51 GMT -8
 Question: besides the doctrines of Predestination, what good is there to say about reformer John Calvin? I myself am not a Calvinist, so his doctrines of Predestination are really a positive attribute of Calvin for me. Also, I'm not a fan of Calvin's Geneva (at least from what I've heard of it). But if anyone is big into Calvin, can he be "sold" to me apart from his "Calvinism"  |
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 26, 2009 16:43:19 GMT -8
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Post by Josh on Aug 26, 2009 16:49:39 GMT -8
from the article kevin posted:
The Reformation teachings of John Calvin were foundational in the development of modern Europe and North America. Calvin’s concept of the separation of the church and civil government - where each stand independent of each other yet recognise each other’s Divine authority, supporting each other within their own spheres – transformed Western Civilization.
Calvin’s ideas of religious toleration, representative government, constitutionalising the monarchy, establishing the rights and liberties of citizens and the Christian work ethic led to the Industrial and Scientific Revolutions, developing the most productive and prosperous societies in history.
If this is the case, then how is it reconciled with the vision of a super intolerant heretic punishing Geneva that I've heard tell of?
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 26, 2009 16:54:22 GMT -8
It is Easily reconciled. Thomas Jefferson a revered Founding Father wrote "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." He believed everyone to be equal in his ideals, ideals that persevere to today. However the reality of the man was that we was a slave raping, libertine. Yet, we can still find Jefferson ideals useful even though his person conduct was disgraceful. Same for Calvin!
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Post by Josh on Aug 26, 2009 16:58:05 GMT -8
I'd venture to say that Calvin's extremely dogmatic outlook had more to do with this inconsistancy than merely his human proclivity toward hypocrisy.
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 26, 2009 17:05:19 GMT -8
I would venture to say Calvins Geneva created a wonderful book. In the same tone, www.genevabible.org/ Another excellent Bible Translation. |
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Post by Josh on Aug 26, 2009 17:11:43 GMT -8
'Tis beautiful, granted.
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 26, 2009 18:10:39 GMT -8
Yay, we can all love Calvin NOW!
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Post by Josh on Aug 26, 2009 18:26:46 GMT -8
Not so fast.
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 26, 2009 19:01:05 GMT -8
If it weren't for Calvin, who was a genuine Biblical Scholar then dozens of ignorant, uneducated televangelists would have lost the opportunity to skim hundreds of millions of dollars from their ignorant flocks via the prosperity Gospel doctrine. Remember Josh, Whats could for TBN is good for AFC!
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Post by Josh on Aug 26, 2009 19:32:08 GMT -8
I don't get it.
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 26, 2009 19:37:04 GMT -8
Ok, the whole prosperity Gospel movement in contemporary America is a neatly packaged simplification of what Calvin taught about peoples prosperity and their relationship with God. Without him, Hundreds of tele evangalists would never have had the intellectual framework to bastardize a Gospel teaching of material wealth being an outward sign of holiness.
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 26, 2009 22:02:21 GMT -8
Important POINT! You seem to say that Jefferson transgressions were somehow lesser than Calvin's. Are you familiar with the Jeffersonian Bible?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible Thomas Jefferson when so far as to give the four non apostolic evangelists the finger and kick them out of his personal translation of the Bible. That is a lot more radical than anything Calvin did!
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Post by Douglas on Sept 30, 2009 20:49:47 GMT -8
I know it has been a while since this thread was dropped but i had to comment on this quote.
"Calvin’s concept of the separation of the church and civil government - where each stand independent of each other yet recognise each other’s Divine authority, supporting each other within their own spheres – transformed Western Civilization."
From what i understand, and correct me if i am wrong, Calvin set up what was closer to a theocracy, with an official state religion, etc. This was one of his motivations for executing the Anabaptists. Through there refusal of his brand of protestantism they were rejecting at the same time the authority of the State; to reject on was to reject the other. Thus they become traitors and worthy of capital punishment. The quote above seems a pretty direct contradiction to the history that i have read.
Douglas
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