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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 30, 2009 18:54:34 GMT -8
What about the divine plan? God has told us that he knows everything that is going to happen. EVERYTHING. He has also told us that he is unchanging. I ask therefore what is the efficacy of any prayer but the Lord's prayer where we affirm "thy will be done." I believe in predestination. I believe it is the only way we can have a just God. If God has a divine will and it is to be done, then it is right and just beyond our understanding it is is what must occur. If on the other hand, God is pliable, his will can be changed. For example "Lord please heal my (Person I care about)." Instead of Lord your will be done. Are we not asking him to change his plan? What if God's plan is for (person that you care about) to die, even to die in an unimaginably inhumane and disturbing way, say pancreatic cancer or 3rd degree burns. I have enclosed an picture of the Krematoria complex at Auschwitz II. Millions of people, innocent people, including infants, cripples, women, children, teenagers, son, daughters, brothers, wives and husbands went up in smoke at this complex. I imagine each one of them petitioned almightly God for their lives to be spared, and also for the lives of their comrades in suffering. Yet God did not spare them. Instead, like a great "dread lord" his will was done. It seems unimaginably evil, yet it must be his will because it happened, it happened to his chosen people, and if God can change his mind in the single petition of a friend for a friend in need, then why not for a people being transformed in ashes. I am persuaded that God does have some purpose, that it is predetermined and absolute. As a result, even though I often choose to pray for this or that, in my heart I believe, the only true prayer is "thy will be done." For if his will is not done, he appears to be an evil God who cures some, and kills others at the whims of whether they get the right type of intercession petition from a friend or relative. Attachments:
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Post by Josh on Aug 30, 2009 19:58:06 GMT -8
Interesting you should bring this up today, as I commented on this very topic at Church today. I have a LOT of thoughts on this, but no the time right now. Perhaps others would like to chime in?
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 30, 2009 20:08:39 GMT -8
Brother Kevin is Wise, Brother Kevin is Good!
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Post by Josh on Aug 31, 2009 20:31:16 GMT -8
How about if I answer this is stages since I don't have time to write up a whole reply all at once? First off, one needs to deal with the fact that whether we think it does any good to ask God for things or not, the Bible instructs us to ask and not merely say "Lord, your will be done". Some examples: Ephesians 6:18, 1 Timothy 2:1, Psalm 5:3, Luke 11:1-13, 1 Chron. 16:4, Ezra 8:23, Dan. 9:3, Philippians 4:6, etc.. Not only this, but Jesus himself did not merely say "Your will be done", but requested things of God: Hebrews 5:7, Luke 22:42 What say you to this?  |
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 31, 2009 22:32:02 GMT -8
incoherency in a book written over 3000 years by dozens of different authors?
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 31, 2009 23:10:51 GMT -8
sorry for the double post, please see post "THE BIBLE SAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!" For my response...
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Post by Josh on Sept 1, 2009 16:21:48 GMT -8
incoherency in a book written over 3000 years by dozens of different authors? How is it incoherent? Where are we ever told only to pray "the Lord's will be done?" All we really need to make the point is Jesus' example in the garden of Gethsemene where he asks (requests) that the cup of suffering be taken from him, but also submits to whatever God's will is.This is the same Jesus who told us to ask God for our daily needs. When I get some more time I'd like to discuss how this paradox might work and why it might be this way. |
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Post by krhagan19 on Sept 1, 2009 18:13:08 GMT -8
Yeah I have always found it somewhat schizophrenic for God the son who is coequal to God the father to ask himself if the cup of suffering can pass when he himself must know that he himself will answer no?
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Post by Josh on Sept 7, 2009 18:42:36 GMT -8
It's not schizophrenic.
It's a human request of a child to a Father who doesn't want robots for sons.
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Post by robin on Sept 8, 2009 7:17:38 GMT -8
Yeah I have always found it somewhat schizophrenic for God the son who is coequal to God the father to ask himself if the cup of suffering can pass when he himself must know that he himself will answer no? Josh is correct. It is not Schizophrenic for Jesus to seek comfort and direction from his Father. Before making such an accusation about Jesus you should consider what Paul wrote In Philippians. Philippians 2:3-83 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Jesus emptied himself of his divinity, becoming like us (man) in every way. If we pray to the Father why would it be strange for Jesus to do the same? |
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Post by dattaswami on Oct 2, 2012 8:34:23 GMT -8
Interesting you should bring this up today, as I commented on this very topic at Church today. I have a LOT of thoughts on this, but no the time right now. Perhaps others would like to chime in? Ganapati means the Lord of a group of close devotees, who have reached the climax of devotion. The word Gana does not mean the entire group of normal souls. Gana means a group of souls, who have become very close to the Lord by their unimaginable devotion. The Lord is certainly the master of all the souls, but the Gana is specially attached group of souls. The king is attached to the people in his kingdom, but he is specially attached to his family members. There is difference in the intensity of the attachments. When the Lord incarnates on this earth in human form, these souls from the Gana also accompany the Lord. These liberated souls have no bondage of the cycle of deeds and their lives are totally planned by the Lord. For example, if you take the life of Jesus, His crucifixion was not due to His past deeds and it was purely based on the will of the Lord, who planned such incident in His life for the sake of uplift of the society. Therefore, Jesus prayed “Let Thy will be done”. Here the crucifixion is according to the will of the Lord. The same statement cannot be uttered by an ordinary human being in such situation. The crucifixion of other two persons in the same time was based on their sins. Therefore, they cannot utter this statement because their lives were based on their deeds and not on the plan of God’s will. In the case of these two ordinary human beings, the proper statement should be “Let the Law take its own course”. Without this analysis, ordinary human beings also utter the former statement due to ignorance. |
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Post by Josh on Oct 6, 2012 18:36:52 GMT -8
Reminds me of 1 Peter 4:12-19:
For example, if you take the life of Jesus, His crucifixion was not due to His past deeds and it was purely based on the will of the Lord, who planned such incident in His life for the sake of uplift of the society. Therefore, Jesus prayed “Let Thy will be done”. Here the crucifixion is according to the will of the Lord. The same statement cannot be uttered by an ordinary human being in such situation. The crucifixion of other two persons in the same time was based on their sins. Therefore, they cannot utter this statement because their lives were based on their deeds and not on the plan of God’s will. In the case of these two ordinary human beings, the proper statement should be “Let the Law take its own course”. Without this analysis, ordinary human beings also utter the former statement due to ignorance.
I'll have to disagree with you on your references to cycles of reincarnation, etc. but that's probably best for another thread.
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