Dinosaurs on the Ark? The Flood: Global or Local?

[Josh]

Aug 19, 2009 21:27:14 GMT -8 davcal said:

Are we in agreement that there was a catastrophy that sealed so many animals (quickly) in mud? Do we all agree on the world wide flood?

Sorry if this is shocking to you, but, actually, no, I tend to see the Flood as a universal but not global catastrophe.

What I mean by that is that I believe it killed all of humanity (except Noah and his family) but was limited to a particular region of the globe.

[davcal]

WOW.
No need to apologize for your thoughts and the shock that comes with them.

Would it not have been easier to travel to the area that did not flood? There would be no reason for the Flood if it were not global. In 2 Peter 3, the judgment by fire would also mean partial judgment to come. Genesis 7 speaks of the water being 15 cubits above the mountain tops. Science has proven that if the mountains were flattened and the ocean basins were flattened the water would cover the whole earth nearly two miles deep. Also, God's promise to never flood the earth would be null. The Bangladesh flood would be one example.

Regarding the animals, we call dinosaurs, on the ark...

Genesis tells us they were created on the 6th day. And death came from the Fall -after- the creation. This is one proof that they were among man in the day of Noah. There is no evidence that shows the dinosaurs were extinct before the Flood.
Job 40 describes a "bohemoth" that fits the description of the sauropod dinosaur. This is post-Flood...meaning they'd have to be on board the ark. The "tail' gives it away!
Job 41 talks about the Leviathan. This could have been the Sarcosuchus Imperator or the Liopleurodon.
The many legends of dragons can also fit a dinosaur description too. Also post-Flood...also on the ark. Some references to the dragon are in Psalm 74:13 & Isaiah 27:1.
Isaiah 30:6 mentions a fiery flying serpent. This could be the Pterranodon, Rhamphorhynchus, or Ornithpcheirus.

Genesis 7:21-22
And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.

Interesting story from the University of Montana. They found T.Rex bones that were not fully fossilized. Sections of the bones were like fresh bone that seemed to have blood cells and hemoglobin. If these were dated millions of years old, there would be no blood cells, no hemoglobin, and no fresh bone. In the book...I think it's called...The Real Jurassic Park, Earth Schweitzer & Staedter go through great length to show how careful the testing was that showed hemoglobin. (1997)

In Alaska, they found unfossilized duck-billed dinosaur bones and evenfound some frozen dinosaur bones that could not have lasted unmineralized for millions of years. Journal of Paleontology 1987

I don't know (actually no one knows) if ALL of the dinosaurs are extinct. Those that have been found in remote areas of the world recently are just reclassified as non-dinosaur. Pretty convenient.
In fact, many evolutionists are now saying our modern day dinosaur is the bird.

[krhagan19]

Funny how Human remains are found up to 18 thousand years old on every continent but Antarctica yet you believe the flood to be a localized event? That would mean the flood would have had to have taken place over 18,000 years ago which leaves a BIG GAP in the Biblical timeline or there were separate colonies of humans, who died of some other affliction than the flood, yet were restored after the flood to places like Australia and they racially evolved back to the exact same skeletal makeup of current day Australian Aborigines. Stranger indeed. . .

[Josh]

Would it not have been easier to travel to the area that did not flood?

The Flood appears to have been sudden and catastrophic leaving no time for fleeing.

In 2 Peter 3, the judgment by fire would also mean partial judgment to come

It wasn't "partial judgment". The local flood was "complete judgment" just like the future judgment will be.

Science has proven that if the mountains were flattened and the ocean basins were flattened the water would cover the whole earth nearly two miles deep.

Presumably you're referring to the theory of a pre-flood flat earth. Well, yes, that would be necessary to have enough water to flood the surface of the earth (the current earth does not have enough water to be completely flooded). However, the problem with postulating that in roughly 1 years time the earth went from flat to producing all the mountain ranges we see to today is that tectonic activity of that magnitude would have made it impossible for any life or the ark to have even survived the Flood!

Also, God's promise to never flood the earth would be null. The Bangladesh flood would be one example.

God promised to never destroy all life in a Flood again, not never to have a flood of a certain magnitude.

Some other points you raised are addressed in other threads:

In support of
Animal Death Before the Fall

Regarding the references in Job, I think we discussed that earlier on this same thread (I might be wrong)

Regarding these supposed discoveries of intact T. Rex bones, etc.. - what ever came of this research? Someone who found something like that would stand to gain incredible acclaim and notoriety. A true, irrefutable discovery like that could not be overlooked.

[Josh]

Aug 28, 2009 19:07:50 GMT -8 krhagan19 said:

Funny how Human remains are found up to 18 thousand years old on every continent but Antarctica yet you believe the flood to be a localized event? That would mean the flood would have had to have taken place over 18,000 years ago which leaves a BIG GAP in the Biblical timeline or there were separate colonies of humans, who died of some other affliction than the flood, yet were restored after the flood to places like Australia and they racially evolved back to the exact same skeletal makeup of current day Australian Aborigines. Stranger indeed. . .

I do lean toward the idea that the flood was somewhere around 24,000 years ago for a variety of reasons.

As to the Biblical timeline, there are demonstrable gaps in it, plus the geneaologies may only be records of family lines.

Here's a thread on that very topic:

Biblical Geneaologies and the Age of the Earth

Kevin, how old do you think the earth is?

[krhagan19]

between 4.3 and 4.5 billion years old.

[Josh]

So, when do you think the Flood occurred?

[krhagan19]

Just as you see Genesis in a not literal day way I say the flood as symbolic and based on an actual occurance but not literally how it happened in the story. In the same way you do not believe our entire world was created in 7 days. I think that the propensity for societies sorounding the Black Sea to have a flood mythology has several possible sources. This one is the one that makes the most sense to me . . . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

[yeshuafreak]

God promised to never destroy all life in a Flood again, not never to have a flood of a certain magnitude.

then how do you explain the ps 104 when it says that god set limits for the waters?

also, have you read 2peter and hebrews 1-6 yet? (i think the chapter is chapter 4). one of his theses is that God has been done with his work "since the foundation of the world."

shalom- john

PS- i do not interpret the 7000 year old earth theory literally, but midrashically. look up Pardes and Jewish hermeneutics.

[Josh]

The thing is, though, that cultures around the world have similar stories with remarkably similar details... even Aztecs, not just cultures surrounding the Black Sea. This indicates a common original shared experience.

[Josh]

Psalm 104 is discussing creation day 3, not the Flood:

Genesis1: 9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

also, have you read 2peter and hebrews 1-6 yet? (i think the chapter is chapter 4). one of his theses is that God has been done with his work since the foundation of the world."

"

What's the point you're trying to make here? I'm not putting two and two together, but it might just be because I need to get up and go play with the kids.

Later... and as always, thanks for the discussion.

[krhagan19]

Kevin thinks about Josh's response. Kevin notes that Freshwater agriculture as at the core of any civilization even today except by trade impossible in the ancient world. Kevin observes that on all continents and places there are "storms of the Century, or even Millenia" that cause massive flooding along low lying waterways, you know, the type of place where you would build a civilization. Perhaps that is why there is universal reference to a flood event, because with all of the different situations and climates that major civilizations lived in, a major flood was the one disaster that all of them would experience at some point in their existence given enough time.

[Josh]

It's been a while since I read the various flood accounts, but I recall them being quite specifically similar in some ways, where even the names of the main protaganist bear some similarity to Noah. Anyone want to dig that info up?

[krhagan19]

Kevin votes that the material "dug up" on this account be from legidimate academic sources for example www.princeton.edu or www.emory.edu not from fundementalist Christian colleges such as www.liberty.edu.

[yeshuafreak]

The thing is, though, that cultures around the world have similar stories with remarkably similar details... even Aztecs, not just cultures surrounding the Black Sea. This indicates a common original shared experience.

yeah i agree with this completely. but i find this as proof for the world wide flood.

i understand you ps 104 interpretation.

and yes, similar flood stories are found in every culture with EXACT details being the same.

but that still doesnt make sense.

i have to go eat, but i will explain the weakness in your argument later.

shalom

[Josh]

i have to go eat, but i will explain the weakness in your argument later.

Gee thanks. I can't wait!

You mean, what you think are the weaknesses, right? ;D

[yeshuafreak]

anyway: whether you interpret the flood as a literal account or a midrash, it should still be taken sa beneficial to the believers life. so as for debatable matters, we can share our opinion, but it doesnt really matter. appreciate the historical metaphor.

so i will not explain the weakness i see in your argument, because i see no need for this debate; we are not historians, and this has nothing to do with theology. (unless maybe we touch upon the subject of "hermeneutics" and whether scripture is infallible, and what scripture is.) if you DO want to hear my opninon, i will give it, but we must not make debatable matters a place where enmity between the flesh of Yeshua comes in.

shalom- john

shalom- john