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Post by Josh on Jun 30, 2009 8:11:44 GMT -8
Post your comments/ questions/ discussion starters on 1 Timothy Chapter 3 as replies to this post:1 Timothy Chapter 3Overseers and Deacons
1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[c] appeared in a body,[d]
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
Footnotes:
1 Timothy 3:1 Traditionally bishop; also in verse 2
1 Timothy 3:11 Or way, deaconesses
1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts God
1 Timothy 3:16 Or in the flesh
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Post by Josh on Jun 30, 2009 13:13:09 GMT -8
7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
Very interested stipulation. Thoughts on the link between a good rep with outsiders and falling into disgrace/ the devil's trap?
Also- how do you think "must manage his own family well" should be interpreted? What is the defining mark that someone is doing this?
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Post by Josh on Jul 4, 2009 6:32:12 GMT -8
Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
What would it be about serving in this manner that would lead to more assurance in one's faith? What does this "assurance" look like? I have some thoughts, what about y'all?
He appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
An early Christian praise song?
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Post by kraigeriginal on Jul 14, 2009 15:12:18 GMT -8
7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. Very interested stipulation. Thoughts on the link between a good rep with outsiders and falling into disgrace/ the devil's trap? I think that having a good rep with outsiders is one of the only ways many of them will listen to anything you have to say as a Christian. I have had friends specifically say to me something like "I'm glad that you are a Christian who also knows how to have fun" and I know that is a significant thing they see in my life that allows me to influence them by maintaining those relationships but hopefully without compromising who or what I am. Also- how do you think "must manage his own family well" should be interpreted? What is the defining mark that someone is doing this? Not sure there is a standard measurement device, but I do believe there is some sort of old adage that says "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree" or "Monkey see; monkey do." Point being, it should be evident in how "well managed" a family is by the product that is witnessed. Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus. What would it be about serving in this manner that would lead to more assurance in one's faith? What does this "assurance" look like? I have some thoughts, what about y'all? I think that one important way we can relate to Christ is to put ourselves in his sandals. His number one method of living by example was by serving those around him. He was able to do this via miracles including healing, whereas we may not feel able to do the same things he did. I do think that our ability to serve others and put them first is a necessity in the call on our lives. I'm not sure how to gauge how this assurance is viewed. A feeling of satisfaction for helping others that makes you feel more like Jesus? That would seem so high and mighty, or holier than thou. I'd be interested in your thoughts, Josh. |
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Post by Josh on Jul 15, 2009 21:33:44 GMT -8
In regard to the verse about managing one's family, I have seen some interpret this verse, and this one like it from Titus:
Titus 1:6
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient
to mean that a church leader should step down if they are dealing with a rebellous or unbelieving child. While certainly there may be times when it is just in the best interest of a leader to lay aside their church responsibilities and focus on a crisis situation, I also know that not all difficulties with kids are the direct result of bad parenting, etc..
I see these passages in 1 Timothy and Titus as Paul's way of helping Tim and Titus sort out quickly who would be a generally good candidate to lead a new, small church group. Kinda like a "start off with people who don't have a lot of baggage already" approach.
As to the "excellent standing and great assurance" that Paul speaks of, I agree that it must not be some kind of "holier than thou" comparison. Here's how I see it: Paul is saying that when we serve regularly and faithfully and purposefully, when we are wholeheartedly "about our Father's business" it brings confidence in our faith.
All believers are ministers, but sometimes it takes a title or a specific venue for us to take that seriously. And, by virtue of their role, elders and other church leaders throw themselves into a situation that is, spiritually, sink or swim- a catalyst to action, and that action can bring experience which can bring confidence.
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Post by kraigeriginal on Jul 16, 2009 12:52:04 GMT -8
Paul is saying that when we serve regularly and faithfully and purposefully, when we are wholeheartedly "about our Father's business" it brings confidence in our faith. I think I concur. This reminds me of your response to my post before about how we need to accept feedback. You claimed I had ministered to you. This is relevant in how we see each other as valuable assets to the church and the Church. |
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Post by Josh on Jul 18, 2009 17:48:38 GMT -8
What do you suppose the significance of this part of Paul's quote is.
Aren't we all "seen by angels". What's so special about that?
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Post by kraigeriginal on Jul 18, 2009 22:04:22 GMT -8
Significance, I don't know... I think it is just another step in this verification of Christ coming in the flesh and fulfilling these certain requirements like being seen by angels; the angels are heavenly witnesses to His incarnation.
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Post by Josh on Jul 19, 2009 6:27:39 GMT -8
Witnesses of his incarnation.... I like that, is that a kraigeriginal?  I guess we could add... Witnesses of his resurrection as well. Angels form nice endcaps for Jesus' life on earth, huh? |
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Post by christopher on Jul 19, 2009 8:29:40 GMT -8
Of course there is always the possibility that this is a mistranslation of the word angelos. As you probably already know, it simply means 'messenger' in scripture whether celestial or human. John the baptists' disciples were also referred to with this word (Luke 7:24).
So it could quite naturally be rendered.."Seen by messengers" which would dovetail quite nicely with the next phrase "preached to the Gentiles".
It can be a tricky word.
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Post by michelle on Jul 23, 2009 21:56:00 GMT -8
7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. Very interested stipulation. Thoughts on the link between a good rep with outsiders and falling into disgrace/ the devil's trap? I think this also makes reference to not being of this world when you are with non-believers. People need to know where we as believers stand in regards to our principals so that 1) they may not try to tempt us away from those principals and 2) if we are tempted to run from those principals, perhaps we will think twice about doing it in front of non-believers because what does that say to them about Christ. I hope that made sense. I think I need to go to bed now. |
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