Anti-Christ, False Prophets, a Falling Away

[Nothing But the Blood]

May 5, 2009 13:13:05 GMT -8 Josh said:

I am correct in assuming you accidentally left out a "not", as in "many argue that there will not be an antichrist"?

That is my position, that the antichrist was Nero and ancient Rome.

Since I am an amillenialist and partial preterist (or, technically a believer that we are currently in the millenium), I see the "great tribulation" as already past, but I do see a future release of satan from bondage which will probably mean dark, deceptive times before the second coming.

If you're interested in discussing the millenium or tribulation please reply to or start a thread in the eschatology sub-forum

Interesting -- this is a viewpoint that I don't know a whole lot about. I do know a few other people who hold a similar viewpoint as you do.

So do you believe that all that is left to be fulfilled is Jesus' return?

Or do you think that things will get worse before they get better? Do you think that Jesus' words in Matthew 24 have already taken place at the time of Nero?

And what about the passages that warn of a great falling away within the church and false prophets and false teachers?

Verses such as:
2 Timothy 4:3-4
2 Peter 2:1
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

and other such passages?

My personal viewpoint in regard to end times prophecy is this -- that there is both an immediate fulfillment and a future fulfillment. In other words, I view this subject the same way that I view many of the prophecies about Jesus from the OT.

I think Nero and the stuff that was going on at that time was the immediate fulfillment. I think there is also a future fulfillment that will happen just before Jesus returns.

[Josh]

So do you believe that all that is left to be fulfilled is Jesus' return?

Or do you think that things will get worse before they get better?

I do believe that all the signs have been fulfilled and that there is nothing precluding Jesus returning at any moment. In my view, the "rapture" is just another way of saying "2nd Coming/ Final Judgment/ Resurrection of the Dead"- all simultaneous or near simultaneous events imo.

However, since I also believe we are currently in the millenial reign of Christ, there is a hint from Revelation that the millenium will end with a final showdown/ things getting worse:

Revelation 20:7-10

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Consistant with my eschatology, the "camp of God's people/ the city he loves" is the Church, the heavenly Jerusalem, so this could indicate a final attempt to destroy the Church.

This could be happening as we speak, it might be in the distant future, I don't know.

Do you think that Jesus' words in Matthew 24 have already taken place at the time of Nero?

Yes, I think the bulk of the Olivet Discourse is about past events (Luke 21, Matthew 24, Mark 13*)- with the exception of the parousia (coming) language, which I tend to see as separated off from the signs of the end of Jerusalem, although "coming" may also refer to Jesus' coming in judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD.

As to the "falling away"/ "apostasy", I lean against equating the "man of lawlessness" with the "beast". I tend to think they are separate entities- the "beast" being Rome/ Nero and the "man of lawlessness" the apostate jewish revolutionaries of the Jewish war (67-70). For more on my perspective on the "man of lawlessness" see this thread:

aletheia.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=eschatology&action=display&thread=275

Keep the questions coming!

As for you, why do you think Jesus in the Olivet Discourse is talking about something far off in the distant future (in addition to a near fulfillment) when he says, "this generation will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled"? (matt 24:34)

oh, and please keep in mind that I've held most of the possible viewpoints on eschatology at one point or another and so even though I have a particular position I'm defending, I do so humbly and teachably (that's my hope at least)


* and yes, I think all of those passages are talking about the same events

[Nothing But the Blood]

May 5, 2009 19:48:39 GMT -8 Josh said:

As for you, why do you think Jesus in the Olivet Discourse is talking about something far off in the distant future (in addition to a near fulfillment) when he says, "this generation will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled"? (matt 24:34)

Thanks for answering my questions here.

I still have questions about what you think of specific passages...but for now, let me attempt to give you a response in regard to my viewpoint.

The reason that I think that the stuff in Matthew 24 is also referring to a future event is because both Jesus and His disciples seem to believe that these things are going to occur just before He returns. Perhaps the disciples did not understand what they were really asking here -- maybe they were thinking of the political implications of what they thought the Messiah would do at that time...and had not yet realized that Jesus would first have to suffer and die before He would return. But then, maybe they did understand. I don't know.

Regardless, they asked this question in response to Jesus' words in verse 2:
2And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

3As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Also, there is this verse:
4"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


Now, my view is that every since Jesus' resurrection we have been living in the end times. However, what I think Jesus is referring to mostly in this verse is something beyond just the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. If everything after Jesus' resurrection is in the end times, then these events also occurred in the end times.

I understand what you're saying about these things being past events, already being fulfilled.....but at the same time, I don't think that what has already happened quite addresses everything that Jesus alluded to. I think He was referring to both the destruction in 70 and also to something that was to occur at some point beyond that.

For example, I don't think the gospel was preached to the whole world in the time frame of 70 AD. There were many nations that had not yet heard the gospel.

Also, consider these verses:
21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. 24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

4And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.5"For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I really don't see how this can be fully applied to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. I also don't think that the coming language here is simply talking about a judgment and destruction of Jerusalem.

I think Jesus is also referring to Daniel 7 -- especially verses 13 & 14.

13"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14"And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Revelation 1:7 says this:
7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

This coming is a very visible thing, and I do not think it can be equated with simply judgment coming. I think it is referring to the second coming of Jesus.

34"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.35"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.38"For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

I'm no biblical scholar. All I can do is say what I have heard in regard to the generation part. I've heard that the word generation can have different meanings. This is what my study Bible says about "generation:" "if the reference is to the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred about 40 years after Jesus spoke these words, "generation" is used in its ordinary sense of a normal life span. All these things were fulfilled in a preliminary sense in the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. If the reference is to the second coming of Christ, "generation" might indicate the Jewish people as a nation, who were promised existence to the very end. Or it might refer to the future generation alive at the beginning of these things. It does not mean that Jesus had a mistaken notion He was going to return immediately."

[Nothing But the Blood]

If many are to be led astray, and there are to be many false prophets and such, that would even misled the "elect if it were possible." Then it seems to me that the deception that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24 must be very convincing.

Also, if these things are not also meant to be a future prophecy of what is to coming before Jesus' second coming, then how do you explain the direction that society itself seems to be headed in currently? Cannot the things that Jesus spoke about love growing cold, people being disobedient to their parents, false prophets, and so forth also be seen in today's society? Earthquakes, wars, rumors of war?

And what about the direction that the church itself is headed in? It seems to me that it is headed in an apostate direction. If you turn on a Christian TV preacher, most of the time (not all of the time), you will hear stuff that is not quite biblical....some of it is way off. Yet many Christians these days follow after these preachers blindly, and don't really know what the Bible says.

If these have all been fulfilled already, then how do you account for all of this? I'm just asking....I want to hear your opinion on this.

Specifically, I would like to look at the following passages:

2 Timothy 4:3-4
2 Peter 2:1
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

Now I know that not all these passages are specifically referring to just before Jesus' second coming. They can be applied to any time period.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

2 Peter 2:1
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

From
Colossians 2
8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

18Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,19and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

1 John 4:
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

From
Revelation 13
1And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.

2And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

3I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?"

5There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

7It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

9If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

10If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

11Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. 12He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.

13He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.

15And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18Here is wisdom Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

[yeshuafreak]

the ressurection would be proof that the mellinium has come. also, Yeshua was to come before the mellinium. this is proved by scripture. how could Yeshua establish a kingdom if he has not yet come? he couldnt!!

shalom- john

[Josh]

You guys have given me a lot to respond to. Thanks! Just kidding. I love this stuff

NBTB: In regard to the reasons why you think elements of Matthew 24 are still future-oriented (such as the preaching of the gospel to all the world and the tribulation never to be equaled again), please check out this thread. Some of your questions I've already addressed there, and I'll add some of yours there and address them asap.

The Olivet Discourse .

Fire away at any elements you don't think are very solid and we can get into it.

I'd like to use this thread to discuss the "falling away" particularly. Is that an okay way to divy up this topic so it doesn't get too confusing?

[Nothing But the Blood]

May 6, 2009 19:30:00 GMT -8 Josh said:

You guys have given me a lot to respond to. Thanks! Just kidding. I love this stuff

NBTB: In regard to the reasons why you think elements of Matthew 24 are still future-oriented (such as the preaching of the gospel to all the world and the tribulation never to be equaled again), please check out this thread. Some of your questions I've already addressed there, and I'll add some of yours there and address them asap.

The Olivet Discourse .

Fire away at any elements you don't think are very solid and we can get into it.

I'd like to use this thread to discuss the "falling away" particularly. Is that an okay way to divy up this topic so it doesn't get too confusing?

Yes. That is fine with me.

[Josh]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NBTB:

If many are to be led astray, and there are to be many false prophets and such, that would even misled the "elect if it were possible." Then it seems to me that the deception that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24 must be very convincing.

Well, I'd argue that the deceptions perpetrated by the Jewish zealots during the Jewish war were indeed very convincing.

Check out that link above to the "man of lawlessness" thread for examples.

Also, if these things are not also meant to be a future prophecy of what is to coming before Jesus' second coming, then how do you explain the direction that society itself seems to be headed in currently? Cannot the things that Jesus spoke about love growing cold, people being disobedient to their parents, false prophets, and so forth also be seen in today's society? Earthquakes, wars, rumors of war?

Well, I see these things as pretty cyclical throughout church history. I mean, how many times have these themes come around? And btw, I've read studies debunking the idea that earthquakes have increased statistically in recent history.

There were however, a handful of especially notable earthquakes between AD 30- AD 70, as well as wars and rumors of war.

Studying the Jewish war, mainly through Josephus, was one of the most compelling factors that contributed to my change of view on this subject (I began my investigation of eschatology with the views you currently hold*)

* I hate it when people say things like that because it sounds condescending. Dont' take it that way. We must go where we think the evidence leads, and hey, I suppose it could always lead us back to where we started in the end

And what about the direction that the church itself is headed in? It seems to me that it is headed in an apostate direction. If you turn on a Christian TV preacher, most of the time (not all of the time), you will hear stuff that is not quite biblical....some of it is way off. Yet many Christians these days follow after these preachers blindly, and don't really know what the Bible says.

I view this similarly to the above issue- I mean how many times has the church teetered on the edge of wholesale apathy or even apostasy?

When I am flipped channels and get mesmerized by TBN for a couple moments I feel the way you do too for a little while, but most of the time I think the worldwide church is heading in the right direction. But, then again, if I was at your school it might be hard to be that optimistic

[Josh]

NBTB:

Now I know that not all these passages are specifically referring to just before Jesus' second coming. They can be applied to any time period.

So, how about this. I'm going to color code each of these passages according to whether I see them as
* specifically referring to that generation (1st Century)
* generally referring to anytime in the future
* specifically referring to Jesus' final coming

You know, kinda Jesus seminar style (God forbid!)

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

2 Peter 2:1
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

From
Colossians 2
8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

18Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,19and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

1 John 4:
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

(verse 8-10 here are, admittedly, the biggest problem for my view because they seem to say that the "lawless one" will be destroyed at the second coming. But, there is an alternate wording of the Greek that could solve the dilemma:

"(8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and will overpower at the time of the appearance of his coming (9)–whose coming is according to the working of Satan . . . . "- as translated by Dr. Larry Pechawer

for more on that, again, take this link: Who is the Man of Lawlessness?

11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

From
Revelation 13
1And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.

2And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

3I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?"

5There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

7It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

9If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

10If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

11Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. 12He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.

13He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.

15And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18Here is wisdom Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

[Josh]

Yeshuafreak,

I will respond to your point on this thread dedicated to the question of whether we are currently in the Millenium:

aletheia.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=eschatology&thread=1997&page=1