Hebrews 13

[Josh]

Post your comments, questions, and discussion starters on Hebrews chapter 13 as replies to this post.

[Josh]

5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."6So we say with confidence,
"The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?"

A question- is it possible to remain content and free from the love of money while simultaneously seeking to increase your wealth or improve your job situation?

[Josh]

4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

This has me thinking about how "marriage" has lost a lot of credibility in the last 50 years, and yet it is to be honored by all. What do we need to do to restore it's honor in the church and maybe even in the surrounding culture?

[michelle]

May 5, 2009 13:32:06 GMT -8 Josh said:

This has me thinking about how "marriage" has lost a lot of credibility in the last 50 years, and yet it is to be honored by all. What do we need to do to restore it's honor in the church and maybe even in the surrounding culture?

Josh, can you point to specific ways in which you believe marriage has lost credibility? Do you think people just don't believe it in anymore? In what specific ways do you see it being dishonored?

[Josh]

Well, I think a lot of people are just plain skeptical about lifelong committments and whether, even under good circumstances, they will work.

I wish that more Christians could show the rest of the world through their fidelity, forebearance, fogiveness, and dedication, what the strength of God can accomplish in the marriage of two people who are submitted to Him. Sadly, I don't think the stats for Christians marriages are much different from non-Christians.

To me, it's just one of the ways we should stand out.

I'm not trying to open a can of worms here regarding difficult situations in Christian marriages, believe me. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad, I just wish there were more examples of healthy marriages in the kingdom of God.

Also, you know our discussion about how the Bible tends to assume that premarital sex is wrong rather than overtly state it? Well, I think this is one of a handful of passages that spells it out a bit more clearly for the modern reader (in it's reference to the "marriage bed", which is strongly inferred to be the only appropriate place for sex)

[Josh]

17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

OK, Chris, give us your take on this passage so in case I choose to discuss this Sunday I don't walk into an ambush

[christopher]

But ambush's are so much more fun....

I'm absolutely positive we've already discussed this at length either on this forum or the TNP one. But when I have a bit more mental energy (recovering from the flu I've had for the last 3 days), I'll be happy to recap some of what my views are on this favorite missile of the institutional church. ;D

[christopher]

Ok, here are my thoughts on this verse. It’s unfortunate that the question even needs to be raised, because it’s a beautiful exhortation to baby Christians to follow the examples and counsel of mature and experienced brethren. But since it’s been mistranslated, misinterpreted, misused, and abused by those who “love to have the preeminence” (3John) and “Lord it over” the flock (Matt 23), we often find ourselves needing to dig deeper in order to bring out its true intended meaning.

What it’s NOT, IMO, is a command to “salute the office” and do whatever the priest/minister/pastor tells you to do. Unfortunately, unsuspecting church members are sometimes beaten over the head with this verse to do exactly that. Too many times I’ve seen verses like this, and others like 1Pet 5 pressed into service bring people into submission to do whatever the church leadership says, including things that are none of the leaders’ business, making people feel guilty (as if disobeying God Himself) if someone doesn’t do what they say. But that raises all kinds of questions like, who are the leaders that need to be obeyed? And how does one know that the leaders of their current church fellowship are truly chosen by God? Anyone can start a church and say they’re the anointed leaders. Does that mean anyone entering the congregation are now under their dominion?

That goes directly against the very words of Jesus on the matter.

Matt 20:24-28
25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave--
NKJV

Start with the translation. I’ve not seen an English translation yet that, in my opinion, doesn’t put an institutional spin on this verse. The NKJV (my favorite) is one of the worst.

Obey those who rule over you, NKJV

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority NIV

The NASU comes the closest to a faithful translation IMO:

Obey your leaders and submit to them NASU

But IMO looking at the original language, the text should really read something like:

Be agreeable to those who lead you, and defer to them…

I don’t believe there is anything like an official authority intended in this passage, that idea needs to be imported and it’s easy to do since that’s the paradigm we’re all used to. But it was not so in the early church.

Now, how do you know who is the leaders? Well the author already told us a few verses earlier:

Heb 13:7-8
7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.
NKJV

There we have the true source of authority, it’s the word of God coupled together with a good example. That sounds a lot like what Jesus said:

Matt 23:1-3
23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
NKJV

What? Is Jesus giving the same scribes and Pharisees He’s about to blast as hypocrites an official office in the Kingdom that people must obey and submit to them? No, He’s simply saying obey the word of God as it is taught by them. But in contrast the Heb 13:7, although He says listen to their words, He also says DON’T do as they do.

With this in mind, it’s not surprising that the author of Hebrews would echo this sentiment. I mean, in those times, who knew the word of God? It was those elders who had/took the time go down to the synagogue or meeting place to study it. It was then their duty to teach what they learned. It’s not like everyone else had access to it as we do today. They didn’t have bibles then. We are in a very different time now and each of us can know the word of God. And if my 5 year old speaks it to me, I’m obligated to obey it the same as if the Archbishop of my denomination does.

Now, it shouldn’t be assumed here that I oppose having leadership in church fellowships, quite the contrary. I think there is still great value and wisdom in learning and taking godly counsel from those who are older and wiser in the faith than we are AND walking the walk. That goes without saying, it’s like any other life skill we seek to perfect. But we shouldn’t automatically suppose that those who have had hands layed on them to become elders/pastors/priests etc. have some sort of spiritual red phone to God and therefore we just blindly follow their personal agenda. Each one is responsible to give an account to God and none of us will be able to say “I knew what I was doing was not Your will, but my leaders told me to so I had to obey because Hebrews 13 tells me to”. It doesn’t work that way. We’re to test all things and hold on to what is good.

Thoughts?

[Josh]

Thanks, Chris.

I know we've discussed this before, but a few comments.

First off, do you have a linguistic basis for wanted to see this passage translated differently?

Perhaps you might like the "Message" version:

17Be responsive to your pastoral leaders. Listen to their counsel.

Anyway, I'm pretty much in agreement with your interpretation of the passage.

I think verses 7 and 8 back up your thesis:

7Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Here, the author says we should imitate those things in our leaders which, in turn, imitate Jesus Christ, Who never changes though our "leaders" do.

it’s a beautiful exhortation to baby Christians to follow the examples and counsel of mature and experienced brethren.

Granted, most of the audience here could be called "baby Christians". However, I don't think this exhortation need to be limited to only baby Christians. There's another aspect of church leadership (beside role-modelling to younger believers) that I think is also important: the fact that in a body of believers certain decisions must be made for the group to function well.

These decisions may be unrelated to questions of right and wrong, but simply logistics. And I think part of this exhortation is an encouragement to the members to defer (which I think is a good word you employed) to those who make practical decisions so that their job isn't excessively burdened by undue resistance. There are certainly times in the life of a church when not everyone will agree about a particular decision (though not on moral grounds), and in order for the greater good to occur, there must be deference shown.

However, even the "leaders" are called to mutual submission.

How I look at it is that if someone in the church body is taking on a particular responsibility, then those who haven't personally taken on that work should be as helpful as possible to that person's efforts as long as it doesn't violate a Scriptural mandate even if they themselves wouldn't have made the same choice if they were leading in that area.

Now, one more thing:

You didn't specifically reference the significance of this verse:

They keep watch over you as men who must give an account.

Whereas we must all given an account of ourselves to God, leaders will also have to give an account to God for their involvement with others. As a pastor, though I think this could be said to most importantly refer to the young believers under one's care, I read this as applying in some way to everyone in our congregation- that I am called to be vigilant for everyone in the community, that is, a special calling to pray regularly and invest personally in the life of all of the members, young or old, even those who have been in the faith longer.

[christopher]

First off, do you have a linguistic basis for wanted to see this passage translated differently?

Yes, I believe the original words better support my translation based on the lexicons I've consulted.

Granted, most of the audience here could be called "baby Christians". However, I don't think this exhortation need to be limited to only baby Christians. There's another aspect of church leadership (beside role-modelling to younger believers) that I think is also important: the fact that in a body of believers certain decisions must be made for the group to function well.

I don't disagree with this, especially as a community grows, however the author specifically refers to his audience as babes (end of chapter 5), and it's not always the case that the teachers of a group are also the overseers of the logistical and liturgical details.

As a pastor, though I think this could be said to most importantly refer to the young believers under one's care, I read this as applying in some way to everyone in our congregation- that I am called to be vigilant for everyone in the community, that is, a special calling to pray regularly and invest personally in the life of all of the members, young or old, even those who have been in the faith longer.

I see this responsibility given to everyone in a community (Romans 12, 1Cor 12, Gal 6:1-2, Heb 10:24, James 5:16, etc. etc.)

[Josh]

I see this responsibility given to everyone in a community

There are many responsibilities we all have one to another, but then there are special callings and giftings that certain people have that may stand out in a particular area. In this passage it is specifically the leaders who must give account over the people under their watch.

The most cited responsibilities of the "overseer" and/or "elder" of the New Testament are teaching and shepherding.

Likewise, in 1 Peter 5:1-2a:

1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers...

How I see this is that even though we may all shepherd each other at times in the body of Christ, some individuals (leaders) are specifically entrusted with the care (or the watch) of a particular group of people.

In other words, why are the "leaders" specifically enjoined to be vigilent and shepherd if nothing is being asked above and beyond the normal call of Christian responsibility one to another?

[Josh]

Wonderful study today all. If you guys posted all the wonderful stuff you have to say in person this wouldn't be such a chris-josh discussion-fest, that's for sure

I guess there's just no replacing eye-to-eye contact.

[christopher]

I realize it's tempting to look at these two passages and see a message to the ordained elders and pastors, but that's not necessarily the case.

For example, the 1Peter 5 verse is contrasting the "elders" with "younger people". We wouldn't say that there is an office of "younger people" would we? He's simply talking about older Christians and giving them the exhortation to shepherd (watch over) the younger IMO. He even includes himself (an apostle, not an elder officially) in this category.

For a moment try looking at the Hebrews 13 passage the same as in James:

James 3:1-3
3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. 3 Indeed, we put bits in horses' mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body.
NKJV

Teachers receive a stricter judgment. Sounds a lot like "those who must give account" in Heb 13. James goes on in this passage to talk about the power of the tongue. Although this passage is often used to talk about gossip, I believe it's actually in the context of teaching that he is mostly talking here. As you know, teachers can have a lot of influence over people and can therefore greatly impact the direction of an entire audience/community/organization/etc. Therefore they receive the stricter judgment since they can greatly affect the body of Christ both for good and ill.

Many times, these roles overlap (pastor/elder/teacher), but often they don't. I have done a lot of teaching over the years, although I have never held an official position and I think these passages apply just as much to me as they do someone who has been ordained. And they apply just as much (if not more) to the Sunday school teacher as they do to the head pastor.

But since we tend to have a position called "pastor" (shepherd) in churches today, I understand how these passages can be picked up and applied to that. The language of "watch over your souls" sounds a lot like the role of our modern day pastor position, but I'm not sure that's what the author had in mind here.

[yeshuafreak]

thank you chris for your "study" on the verse about authority... it was helpful.

shalom- john