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Post by rbbailey on Mar 12, 2010 14:31:05 GMT -8
Speaking of Lostaholicism.... "The Pacific" begins this Sunday.....
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Post by moritz on Mar 18, 2010 3:24:34 GMT -8
So, is everybody trying to prove that they actually aren't lostaholics by remaining silent now? Come on! Part of the cure is to acknowledge the disease! ;D Sooooo, what if Smokie-Locke is actually Aaron (Claire's son)?  Smokie says that his mother was crazy just like Claire. And do you remember The episode in season one where Claire had a nightmare including John Locke and Aaron? And the mentalist she visited? Here's a part of it: There was more but I can't find it. Anyway, it was Smokie who made sure Claire would abandon her baby so that Aaron could get off the island. And in another season Kate had a vision of Claire (Smokie??) telling her that Aaron may by no means return to the island. Perhaps Smokie is trying to change the course of things like Jack & co. did with the nuke? Confusion. On a different note: How did you like Sawyer as a cop? Is Widmore really seeking to kill Smokie? Shouldn't he know that he won't be able to do that? Is he even expecting Smokie? After all, Sawyer never said who "not John Locke" actually refered to. Are Smokie and Widmore going to team up for some sort of wicked dream-team? I'm still looking for any sign that Smokie could turn out to be better than we are supposed to believe. But him smacking Claire in the face doesn't really help to clear his record, does it? |
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Post by Josh on Mar 20, 2010 17:56:23 GMT -8
We didn't get to see it last week and haven't yet, due to Justus being sick. So I can't even read the rest of your thread yet Mo  |
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Post by rbbailey on Mar 20, 2010 18:31:02 GMT -8
Still think Smokie is bad. For one, he killed a lot of people just so he could be free to attempt to get off the island. For two, he isn't what he looks like, he's taken the form of a dead man. It seems that Jacob could do that as well, but he does not by choice. One is selfish, one is not.
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Post by moritz on Mar 22, 2010 7:29:44 GMT -8
Still think Smokie is bad. So far, we haven't got a good reason to believe otherwise. We know he is a liar and a killer and a manipulator. It would be an exaggerated stretch if he turned out to be the good guy. What could turn out though, is that he is more complex than merely evil incarnate. Maybe like Sayid with conflicting tendencies to both extremes. |
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Post by Josh on Mar 23, 2010 10:28:19 GMT -8
Mo, I had completely forgotten about those clips you brought up. Sooooo confusing.....
I kind of wonder if Widmore is trying to kill Smokie in order to get back in Jacob's good graces/ become the new Jacob? But can Smokie even be killed? Presumably Jacob didn't want him killed...
Agreed that smokie is still bad, but also agreed with Mo that he is a complex character. All the really evil guys have to be, right?
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Post by moritz on Mar 23, 2010 12:46:06 GMT -8
I kind of wonder if Widmore is trying to kill Smokie in order to get back in Jacob's good graces/ become the new Jacob? Hey, that sounds probable. |
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Post by michelle on Mar 23, 2010 20:18:21 GMT -8
Sooooo, what if Smokie-Locke is actually Aaron (Claire's son)? Smokie says that his mother was crazy just like Claire. And do you remember The episode in season one where Claire had a nightmare including John Locke and Aaron? And the mentalist she visited? Ooh, I like!! I actually proposed to my boss a few weeks that Aaron and baby Kwon are going to rule the island. Maybe baby Kwon (42) is going to be the ruler of the good side and Aaron will be the ruler of the bad side. |
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Post by michelle on Mar 23, 2010 21:04:44 GMT -8
Ok, this episode was amazing.
Loved the part where Jacob was...let's call it baptizing...Richard. It's awesome that after the "bath" that he realized he wanted to live. And then the wine came out and Jacob started talking. Wow!!
I love that Hurley was there for Richard when he was at the end of his ropes, when he was ready to give up. Kind of like how the church (well, at least our church) is there for each other when we are at the end of our ropes.
And if people still had any doubt that smokie is the bad guy and thought maybe they'd pull an old switcharoo. I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.
After Jacob gave the bottle to smokie, all I could think was "What can wash away my sins. Nothing but the blood of Jesus".
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Post by Josh on Mar 23, 2010 21:18:43 GMT -8
Yep on the baptism/ communion motifs.
Also, every time I see the original smokie and Jacob sit down to talk I think of Job 1:6
One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
Obviously there's a whole lot of the book of Job going on on this island... and Jacob made it clearer than ever in tonight's episode. The conversations were pretty much this:
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."
12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD
So, I guess this makes Richard sort of a Moses figure... or perhaps a Peter figure.
When Jacob says he can be replaced, that seems like a strike against him being a Jesus figure, but isn't that the whole point of Jesus' death and ascension, that now God will dwell on the earth among and through his people?
On another note, though, when Jacob says he cannot absolve Richard's sins does that contradict a Jesus motif? Or is Jacob saying that he can't just snap his fingers and cancel the sin without cost?
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Post by rbbailey on Mar 23, 2010 21:18:52 GMT -8
Yeah! I was right about the island, about Smokie and Jacob, and even about Richard (although I thought he may have a more mysterious origin than how it turned out, I had his role nailed!)
But, that doesn't mean much, it's more that the plot is about truth.
I think this episode was actually the climax. It seemed low-key, but it was the climax.
Yeah, when Locke is there in the end, I thought, "Hurley got their first!"
I also think the ideas brought up here about the relationship between Jacob and Esau are really starting to play out. When they were sitting together I really got that sense.
Anyway, I'm so bad at guessing plots and such that I'm very happy with myself for seeing the island as a holding place, a purgatory for these two beings, where one is in jail, the other is there to keep him there.
The entire story really is about free will. And it just now occurred to me that one of the things that has bugged me all through the series is that people tend to just stand there and not say anything when someone goes off and does something stupid. I always thing, "Why won't someone say something!?" But really, it only serves to solidify the idea that the whole series is really about free will. Nothing else matters. It is why Christ came.
Exactly, Josh, when they sat on the log I thought of the same passage in Job!
About Jacob being the Christ figure: Most Christ figures in literature are incomplete, I think on purpose, because they aren't Christ. They play that role, but they aren't God Himself. I don't think Jacob is 'God'. I think of him as god of the island, placed their by God.
When it comes to absolving sins, well, there's the answer! He's not Jesus himself. But also, I think it plays into the scene at the beginning of this episode, the perversion of the idea that one can earn one's absolution was spat upon here, and Jacob's comment to Richard (and Ben's story) prove that. Actually most of the characters have that truth played out in their stories -- they are all out to earn their salvation, and some of them are willing to go through great lengths to do it.
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Post by Kirby on Mar 24, 2010 9:34:24 GMT -8
Josh wrote:
and then rbbailey wrote:
There is a lot of symbolism from MANY myths in this show, not just Judeo-Christian ones. Although there are themes of goodness, redemption, et al, it is not a direct allegory. Jacob is NOT Jesus, he is Jacob.
And, yeah, smokie/Locke/man in black is not the good guy. But what of Charles Whitmore? After what happened to Ben, there may be good in him yet...
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Post by Josh on Mar 24, 2010 20:29:55 GMT -8
Granted, I know a character can be a type of Christ in one or two aspects and not in others, but Jacob seems to me to have so far fit the Jesus motif quite holistically. And what is more fitting for the theme than forgiveness of sins. However, his similiarities to Jesus just might be that he is, in effect, a great imitator of Christ, though a lesser angel. Perhaps the angel with the key to pit from Revelation?  Kirby- I know there is mythology from a myriad of literary sources, but, then again, I think whatever was or is true in any source is really at the end of the day part of the Judeo-Christian story anyway. So there's a lot of overlap for me. Now I have to confess that I still don't see the "Jacob and Esau" theme here. I mean other than the fact that Jacob is named Jacob, what are you guys driving at? |
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Post by moritz on Mar 25, 2010 8:07:46 GMT -8
I think this episode killed it for me.  I'm outta here. |
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Post by Kirby on Mar 25, 2010 9:43:33 GMT -8
When I first said it, it was more of a guess. Not that they are THE Jacob and Esau from the OT, but rather tha they may be brothers that are always in conflict or competition, Jacob being the chosen one and Esau's jealously leads him to evil. It would make a lot of sense to me if they were brothers.
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Post by michelle on Mar 25, 2010 10:43:47 GMT -8
I think this episode killed it for me. I'm outta here. What about it killed it for you, Mo? I'm curious how you went from being a Lostaholic to being "outta here" in one episode, especially when you had so many good thoughts and questions and there are only 7 episodes left. |
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Post by Josh on Mar 25, 2010 10:57:45 GMT -8
How come, Mo?
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