Israel and Gaza

[tara]

???Ok...I spent all evening trying to remember my log-in for your discussion board because I am hoping that Josh (or someone)can enlighten me. I am so hungry to know more about what is going on in Israel right now but I feel completely ignorant. Where can I go to get a synopsis. I am currently reading through Isaiah and am getting a lot out of the prophesy part, but that doesn't help me understand Gaza and Hamas? and everything else. How can I understand who is who and are they good or bad and what it means relative to peace making and prophesy? I just eat this stuff up and my google searches are leaving me more confused than before.

[Josh]

Great question. I got some thoughts on this that I'll try to post ASAP. Maybe others do as well?

[Josh]

I am so hungry to know more about what is going on in Israel right now but I feel completely ignorant. Where can I go to get a synopsis.

I'll look around for a good synopsis of the history of the current conflicts between Jews and Arabs in Palestine. But for now, I want to respond quickly to this part:

I am currently reading through Isaiah and am getting a lot out of the prophesy part, but that doesn't help me understand Gaza and Hamas? and everything else. How can I understand who is who and are they good or bad and what it means relative to peace making and prophesy?

I'm going to jump into this but please note that this is where different schools of interpretation of bible prophecy really make a decisive difference. I'll give you my perspective from the theological viewpoint on eschatology that I hold (partial preterist and amillenialist).

So, here's what I would say in a nutshell (there's a lot more on this kind of stuff on our eschatology (end times) sub-forum www.aletheia.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=eschatology

In light of the New Testament, prophecies about the future of Israel past the coming of Messiah should be seen as being fulfilled in the Church unless there's a strong compelling reason to really think the prophecy is speaking of the literal land of Israel.

I say this because over and over again in the New Testament the authors of Scripture redefine for us what several important concepts from the Old Testament now mean in light of Christ.

For instance, Jerusalem and Mt. Zion are now seen as the heavenly city, the Church.

Israel is now all of God's chosen people, Jew and Gentile.

The Temple is no longer to be seen of as a physical temple, but we are God's temple, His church corporately is God's temple, Jesus himself is God's temple. There is no further need for a physical temple.

The New Testament authors radically redirect the surface, temporal hope of the prophets for land and nationality, race, kingdom, city, and temple, to the greater hope buried there all along of a "kingdom not of this world" comprised of "Jew and Gentile".

I've written a lengthy article backing this up from Scripture. Here's a link:

Israel and the Church

That said, I'd be careful to identify details in the prophecies with current events in the middle east. I'm saying that most of the prophecies about Israel's future are fulfilled spiritually in the church*.

The implications of this are that the modern state of Israel is not "God's chosen people" any more than anyone else. They don't have a blank check to do whatever they want with God's sanction. The State of Israel has done it's share of wrongs (though I still support their right to statehood and self-defense).

Hamas is an evil organization, but Hamas doesn't equal Palestinian Arabs, many of whom are caught in between the two forces (many of whom, I might add, are Arab Christians, persecuted by both Muslims and the state of Israel).

That's a lot. I probably left a lot unsaid or maybe this was confusing. Let me know what you think.




*There are a few possible exceptions to this, I believe.

[tara]

Gotcha...I think I understand what you are saying about fulfillment of prophesy in Isaiah. What you said matches what my understanding of what is discussed. Although...some of it seems to reference the second coming to me. I guess I just want to feel like I understand what is happening over there in Israel. The more I read in the Old Testament, the more that I see how grieved our God is by his people rejecting him and I want to see what is going on in relation to that. I do agree that we are now his people as well, but I do think that Israel specifically will be the heart of future conflicts and i don't understand all of the different people groups and what they represent. I feel the same when I read in the gospels about the sanhedrin and samarians etc...I think I need a glossary of biblical terms perhaps...both ancient and modern. I know this is rambling...but I am so curious about it. Thanks for responding Josh. I have always respected the amount of effort you put forth on such things. It reflects your dedication to spiritual formation.

"Hamas is an evil organization, but Hamas doesn't equal Palestinian Arabs, many of whom are caught in between the two forces (many of whom, I might add, are Arab Christians, persecuted by both Muslims and the state of Israel)." This part says so much with such few words....but I am still lost. I also don't know how to quote with boxes like you do. I apologize for my archaic methods. Thanks for the prayers as well.

[christopher]

Hi Tara,

I'll just add two cents here if I may.

As people living in 21st century western culture, part of the frustration we have when trying to read ancient middle-eastern literature is that we don't understand the structure and poetic styles of what we're reading. It's very complex to sort out. As such, there are those who've endeavored to just interpret it all as literally as possible and what we have is a relatively new theological system that is very popular today. Hence, the fascination many Christians have with the nation of Israel.

A thorough examination of OT prophesy will reveal that the prophets often used language that sounds very cosmically cataclysmic (end of the world sounding stuff), but were really only talking about localized judgments of kingdoms and nations. Isaiah is especially full of this type of prophesy.

I find nothing in all of scripture that leads me to believe that the present nation of Israel has anything to do with God's plan for wrapping things up here. I am aware of the passages that seem to have a prima facie suggestion that Israel is at the center of God's end times program, but I think they can be better explained in another light with good sound hermeneutical principles.

Anyway, not sure if that's any help or not. But when I was interested in this stuff, it really helped me a lot to realize that the prophets spoke in a very poetic and symbolic fashion most of the time.

Lord bless.

[Josh]

Tara,

It's sometimes easier to discuss the meaning/ focus of specific passages from the prophets than all the prophets together or even the whole book of Isaiah.

Do you have specific passages in Isaiah that you're thinking about?

We have a sub-forum on Isaiah on our Bible Studies sub-forum.
Here's a link:Isaiah
If you want to post a question on a passage, we could talk about individual ones there. Just title the thread Isaiah 2 or 7 or whatever and post your thoughts.

[moritz]

Jan 4, 2009 20:32:50 GMT -8 tara said:

How can I understand who is who and are they good or bad and what it means relative to peace making and prophesy?

Hi Tara,
I suppose I can't help you with the prophesy (though Josh and Chris should be competent enough on the issue). But there's a lot to say about the current events and the history of this conflict. The sad thing about is, I suppose, that getting the picture here won't help to clear the confusion. For in this conflict the lines between good and bad, innocent and guilty, victim and perpetrator are totally intervowen. The entire conflict is incredibly frustrating. One would expect people to get tired of hate and bloodspill, grief and pain, fear and anxiety, violence and counterviolence. This conflict is more than anything a tribal conflict. Religion plays it's part and helps making things even more complicated. But I'm convinced it's more than that. After all, as we can see in Afghanistan or Northern Ireland, believing in the same God doesn't necessarily mean getting along. Hence believing in different God's doesn't have to be the main reason for a never ending feud. After all history tells us that there was a time when Jews, Christians and Muslims coexisted peacefully (though not as equals). So the violent vendetta isn't immanent to the religions.
Anyway, the more recent history of violence in the Holy Land is long. Both Palestinians and Iraelis have committed severe mistakes and hostilities. The perception of what is going on and who's to blame differs completely on each side. It's the history of war in a nutshell and of the bad human habit not to learn from the past

I realize I didn't tell you anything about the actual events. I hope I will find the time to write more but I can't promise anything. For the time being I just want to make the point that though it seems obvious who we should side with this is in reality a very complicated question that requires a lot of differentiation.

That didn't help, did it?

[christopher]

Tara,

This is one of those rare moments that I actually agree with Moritz on something ;D.

The standard Christian position these days is that Israel is to be supported no matter what. This is due to the dispensational propaganda that has everyone believing that speaking against Israel somehow makes you an enemy of God. I flat reject that notion and the bible verses they like to use to support it are weak at best. Israel has done its fair share of atrocities and use of excessive force. But beyond that, it's strange position to take considering that there are more Christians per capita on the Palenstian side of the wall than there are in Israel (a mostly atheist nation). So it seems to me if someone is committed to support "Gods' chosen people", is it wiser to choose the side of those who at least claim to follow Him, or those who deny He even exists *

* I'm not saying that this is the criteria to choose sides, or even that sides should be chosen at all. I'm only pointing out the inconsistency of the dispensational propaganda.

[Josh]

I'm much agreed with Mo and Chris here.

A little more background on the Gaza issue.

When Israel was attacked by all the surrounding Arab countries in the Six Day War of 1967, in retaliation, they occupied chunks of the attacking countries and claimed them as their own for settlement. Gaza was taken from Egypt.

Since then, Gaza has been a debated strip of land mostly populated by Arabs (Palestinians) which has gone back and forth from being largely self-governing (but still under Israeli control) at times, to being agressively settled by Israelis, then back to Israeli withdrawal, and yet again back to extreme sanctions in order to stop the terrorist actions of Hamas, and now again to open military conflict.

For a good larger overview of Arab-Israeli conflicts, here's a wikipedia link:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

But, in a nutshell, it's all Great Britian's fault

Not really, but sorta....

[Josh]

I also don't know how to quote with boxes like you do.

Well, the way I do it is I just copy the part I want to quote, then paste it into my post, then highlight it, and click on the "insert quote" button just above.

[tara]

Wow...The brainpower here is astounding! I think I understand what you are saying. I must correct myself in saying that I wasn't really thinking about Isaiah and what is happening over there specifically now, but rather that while I read Isaiah I feel like God is saying through Isaiah what he will do to Israel as a consequence. I suppose I was assuming it meant later but now grasp that the whole pre-millenial, post-millenial, a-millenial (one of these...)would interpret that as having happened approx AD70 (am i in the ball park?).

I don't know where I stand on that at this point in terms of those views. I do wish that one view or the other would "hit a home run" in my heart. I think I just want God's intent regarding this to move in to my soul and stay there. I was just typing that I wish it wasn't so hard to understand it, and then a thought about Jewish scholars giving up their lives to follow a Rabbi and learn the texts made me realize that it is all about priorities (and spiritual gifiting). I don't necessarily think that God intends for me to give up all (meaning my job and kids and family) to study his word, but when I am studying, I am the most content and I like that feeling.

I just don't want to be fooled and mistake biblical warnings by thinking that they aren't meant for me. I think that it is in our nature to want to think that certain things don't apply to us and that if it did apply to us then our God would be a harsh God.

God can be harsh. He is also loving, merciful, kind, generous, forgiving, strong, jealous etc...I just want the Holy Spirit to guide me in wisdom of the text so that I am understanding my God the way he wants to be understood. I take him at his word and grasp how important it is tohim that we honor him.

Regarding Gaza and Israel...I feel like maybe wikipedia might be a good place to start. I also think that some day when my boys are grown, perhaps going to school to take classes on this stuff would be good for me.

I covet the way all of this just rolls of your fingers (Josh, Christopher and moritz) and I can sense that it is a difficult topic to summarize for me in this manner. I appreciate your time and efforts to help me understand.

I will keep persevering in this....Peace to you,
Tara

[christopher]

Hi Tara,

I suppose I was assuming it meant later but now grasp that the whole pre-millenial, post-millenial, a-millenial (one of these...)would interpret that as having happened approx AD70 (am i in the ball park?).

You're in the ball park (kinda). It's quite alright to be pan-millennial (it'll all pan out in the end ), as long as whatever view you hold leads you to follow Jesus (and they all do).

Lord bless.

[sarah]

great thoughts, I have also been thinking a lot about this lately. Oh and I finally have an official perspective... I'm a panmillennialist!

[Josh]

I just don't want to be fooled and mistake biblical warnings by thinking that they aren't meant for me. I think that it is in our nature to want to think that certain things don't apply to us and that if it did apply to us then our God would be a harsh God.

First off, I think it's important to note that any warning in Scripture applies to us in some way because it serves as an example of what God wills and desires and what grieves Him, whether the immediate context of a prophecy is about us particularly or not. If it was important enough for God to write into His story, it's important enough for us all to pay attention to it.

1 Cor. 10:11

These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

Still, it could be dangerous to think that specific prophecies about specific events are about us when they really weren't meant to be. I mean, how many times in Church history have folks been wrong about this sort of thing, much to their detriment? (Millerites, Jehovah's Witnesses, the list goes on and on)

I'd recommend, as Chris suggested, being a "panmillenialist" until you feel persuaded by a certain viewpoint after taking the time to study it fully. But even then when we have become pretty convinced of something, it's still hugely important to hold such secondary beliefs humbly and still allow your view to be affected by fresh information.

As to why I think the topic is important, though, I'd say that I believe the popular futurist stance which sees the modern day state of Israel as fulfilling detailed prophecies of the OT is dangerous in that it:

a) confuses who the people of God really are
b) emphasizes land, race, and nationality when Jesus actually deemphasized such things
c) tends to support the state of Israel with blind allegiance
d) illicits unreasonable fear about coming world events
and lastly, and this is the most important to me
e) misses the wealth and richness of what the prophets have to say about the Kingdom of God/ the Church as we experience it right now by displacing their focus on future or current political events