1 Timothy 2

[Josh]

Post your comments/ questions/ discussion starters on 1 Timothy Chapter 2 as replies to this post:

1 Timothy 2

Instructions on Worship

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Some thoughts from last fall:

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

This passage stands out to me this week as we vote in a new President- regardless of who ends up winning, praying like this, Pauls tells us, is part of what it means to be a Christian who lives in the world yet not of it.

[Josh]

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

How does a hard-core hyper-Calvinist deal with a passage like this?

[kraigeriginal]

How about the Jews and JW's, too?

I'm hoping to make the cut for the 144k

(I'll get serious with this one soon...)

[Josh]

Sorry dude. Someone'll have to get bumped and you're going to have to shape up a whole lot more for that to happen!

[yeshuafreak]

kraigeriginal:

what do you mean by this:

How about the Jews and JW's, too?

i dont think anything in jewish theology applies in this discussion.

[Josh]

Yeah, what did you mean by the Jews reference?

I got the JW one.

[kraigeriginal]

Um, well they don't believe in the NT, so I was saying basically that this passage about all men being saved isn't quite relevant to them.

[yeshuafreak]

oh. well... there are messianic jews. like me.

you are talking about mainstream rabbinical judasim. i forgive you, but dont say 'jew' anymore. use a more narrow term.

shalom- john

[Josh]

They do have the passage in the OT about God not wanting anyone to perish, however.

[kraigeriginal]

I don't believe my use of the term "Jew" was incorrect. It may not be all-inclusive, but it isn't incorrect.

I doubt I'll have any reason to use the term again.

[yeshuafreak]

i was not saying it was incorrect, rather, i was saying it was two broad.

i am not ofended by it because i understand that most people dont understand. but now that you do, i will be very annoyeed if you use such a broad term again. "if you still sin after the knoweleddge of the truth, there will be no forgiveness of sins (heb)" same thing applies, except at a MUCH lower level.

anyway, lets not ight over the word 'jew'... instead, let us get back on topic and dicuss the scripture.


(PS- like Josh mentioned, jews also have a scripture about YHVH not wanting anyone to perish, and he tells that he gives torah, and in doing that he sets "life and death" among them. he then tells them to "choose life". )

shalom- john

[Josh]

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

This passage deserves more focused discussion. Here's a relevant link:

Women's Role in the Church

[michelle]

Jun 30, 2009 13:09:41 GMT -8 Josh said:

15But women will be saved through childbearing

I would like to hear people's input on what Paul meant by this. Because it sounds like I'm screwed!

[Josh]

I would like to hear people's input on what Paul meant by this. Because it sounds like I'm screwed!

Well, he obviously doesn't mean that childbearing itself will bring them salvation, which would be contra to everything else he said.

He either meant

a) women will be saved from the curse and results of the fall, which, for Eve, was represented by increased pain in childbearing (Gen. 3:16)

or

b) women (and all mankind) have/has been saved through childbearing in that Mary, as a representative of womankind, brought Jesus into the world, as the fulfillment of Gen. 3:15.

[christopher]

There is yet another option.

The word used for "saved" here is also used for made whole or healed (Like the woman in Matt 9:20-22) or made safe.

In that day and culture, the normal vocation and aspiration of a woman was raising children. Full-time motherhood is perhaps the highest form of full-time ministry. The day to day self-sacrificing nature of being a mom, nurturing, loving, teaching, children is as close to the heart of God as one can get (Matt 23:37).

We've all heard many women declare that motherhood has made them whole and many who have children feel incomplete without them (though not all).

I don't think Paul is making a universal statement about women or salvation here. If we think of "salvation" as merely escape from God's wrath in the judgment, then we miss the big picture. Jesus came not only to deliver us from our just rewards, but to save us from sin.

Through the power of the Holy Spirit, we become obedient to the vocation He gives us, whether it be ministry of the church, the mission field, or motherhood. When we're busy about His work, we hardly have time to be "deceived" (as Eve was) and are thus "saved" or "kept safe" from sin and "made whole" in that we are fulfilling our God appointed purpose for our lives.

[michelle]

Thanks for your thoughts. I knew he didn't mean that eternal salvation came from childbirth because then that would mean that women who can't have children could not be saved.

Jul 24, 2009 8:05:04 GMT -8 christopher said:

Through the power of the Holy Spirit, we become obedient to the vocation He gives us, whether it be ministry of the church, the mission field, or motherhood. When we're busy about His work, we hardly have time to be "deceived" (as Eve was) and are thus "saved" or "kept safe" from sin and "made whole" in that we are fulfilling our God appointed purpose for our lives.

Chris, this makes sense to me. The more we entrench ourselves in His work, the less room we have for sin.