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Post by moritz on Aug 27, 2008 3:49:13 GMT -8
I've asked this before elsewhere, but I never got a reply. So I'm trying this again. I've come across the following quotes by Rose and Steve: Christ died for his bride* - complete sacrifice! (In: Women's role in the home, reply # 5) *Rose refers to the church here And Steve said: But He bore the cross because of the "Joy set before Him". He wanted to redeem mankind from there sin. He and the Father where completely unified on this. (In: God's personality, reply #3) My question is: Where is the sacrifice? I see no sacrifice at all. Jesus knew what he was trading. In contrast to us, he knew that it was all real. He took no risk. He had to go through a painful couple of hours but he knew what he had to gain. Following the rationality shown elsewhere, that God's redemption outweighs even the worst suffering (see Job), I conclude that what Jesus did was no sacrifice at all. Comments? |
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Post by Josh on Aug 27, 2008 10:48:21 GMT -8
Good one, Mo! I look forward to answering/ hearing others thoughts on this.
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Post by Josh on Aug 28, 2008 21:13:43 GMT -8
1. First off, Mo, aren't you the one who said it was sadistic of God (and masochistic of Jesus) to require/accept His death on the cross for the atonement of sins?
Yet now you're arguing that the severity of the suffering of Jesus is paltry.
2. Secondly, the sacrifice of Christ began long before the crucifixion. It began at the Incarnation, when God became human, taking on all it's normal physical burdens and limitations:
Phil. 2:5-8 NASB
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
It's really quite shocking to think of the eternal son of God becoming as finite as a human baby. For God to experience hunger, loneliness, grief, physical limitation, exhaustion, even temptation etc... is a sacrifice we can't even calculate.
3. Thirdly, the suffering of the cross shouldn't be minimized. I know his execution only last several hours compared to all eternity, but still it was one of the most horrible execution methods ever invented- not to mention the torture that occurred beforehand.
4. Four, the suffering wasn't just physical. It was emotional- beginning with the desertion of his closest friends.
Jesus, being God in the flesh, wasn't a stoic, unemotional talking head who had so much perspective that He pain didn't truly affect Him. Reading about His agonized prayer in the garden of Gethsemane brings this home:
Matthew 26:36-46
36Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
45Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"
And of course his words from the cross:
Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Incidentally, these are strange inclusions for a new sect trying to sell their master as deity if not authentic. They have a ring of truth to me.
Jesus experienced abandonment from His friends, fear of suffering, and, beyond that, the feeling that His own Father had abandoned Him.
Mo, I don't have a lot of confidence that "knowledge of how things are going to turn out" does much to dull the suffering of the moment- whether physical or emotional. I know it only helps a little for me.
5. Five, and most significantly, in addition to the sacrifice of becoming finite, physical torture, mental and emotional anguish, Jesus took our sins upon Himself- the sins of the whole world. Many see this terminology to mean that Jesus suffered wrath from God on our behalf. But however you look at, bearing our sin, in fact, becoming our sin, as you'll see in a second, implies incalculable suffering:
1 Peter 2:21-22
21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22"He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth." 23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
2 Cor. 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
As a postscript to all this, take some real time to read this propechy of the Messiah written hundreds of years before the life of Jesus. Besides being among the best passages of ancient poetry, it captures the essence of the suffering of the Messiah in all the facets I've covered:
Isaiah 52:13-15
13 See, my servant will act wisely ;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him —
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
15 so will he sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
6. Six:
Knowing what you're trading doesn't by necessity reduce suffering. And sacrifice isn't defined by risk. It's primarily defined by things given up, and pain endured.
7. Lastly, all I've said has to do with Jesus acting sacrificially (we've been looking at sacrifice as a verb) But apart from all of this, Jesus was also a sacrifice (noun) in a very technical sense. From what we can gather in Scripture, the most essential part of what Jesus did for us wasn't how much He suffered, but that He was innocent and yet died on our behalf, as an atoning sacrifice.
So, I guess I would say that Jesus was a sacrificial sacrifice.
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Post by moritz on Aug 29, 2008 2:36:51 GMT -8
1. First off, Mo, aren't you the one who said it was sadistic of God (and masochistic of Jesus) to require/accept His death on the cross for the atonement of sins? Yet now you're arguing that the severity of the suffering of Jesus is paltry. I didn’t use the word paltry. The word is deprecatory as far as I know. I see no contradiction in my statements. Given the possibilities of an omnipotent (or all powerful) God, I find his method of proceeding weird, illogical, incoherent and not the least – sadistic (see “God’s personality”). Although I understand that eternity is much longer than a human lifetime and the redemption of a loving God can outweigh all earthly suffering, I find no excuse in that premise for divine sadism on earth (see “Job: God on trial”). This has nothing to do with the second statement. If Jesus was God, he knew his suffering was only temporary (in God’s perception of time merely a nanosecond) and – what is most important – most profitable. He had nothing to lose. 2. Secondly, the sacrifice of Christ began long before the crucifixion. It began at the Incarnation, when God became human, taking on all it's normal physical burdens and limitations: I for one like being a human. If it’s so terrible to be a human that we have to call it a sacrifice, wouldn’t you have to agree that it’s kind of unloving from God to have created us this way? It's really quite shocking to think of the eternal son of God becoming as finite as a human baby. For God to experience hunger, loneliness, grief, physical limitation, exhaustion, even temptation etc... is a sacrifice we can't even calculate. I don’t understand what sacrifice this is supposed to be. I mean, God is eternal and all powerful and he can blow everything off whenever he pleases. No matter what would happen to Jesus, it couldn’t possibly destroy or harm God. If we assume his omniscience (and I know you do) he knew how the Jesus story would turn out and that it would turn out in a way that pleased him. All this incarnation stuff isn’t sacrifice it’s nothing but a game in my opinion. God had nothing to lose. What’s all this for? 3. Thirdly, the suffering of the cross shouldn't be minimized. I know his execution only last several hours compared to all eternity, but still it was one of the most horrible execution methods ever invented- not to mention the torture that occurred beforehand. Yes. So? I never said Jesus didn’t suffer. But his suffering, according to your own logic was nothing compared to the benefit. So again, where is the sacrifice? I already pointed out that he didn’t even have to deal with the doubt that God maybe doesn’t even exist and the suffering could be in vain. For he WAS God. 4. Four, the suffering wasn't just physical. It was emotional- beginning with the desertion of his closest friends. Jesus, being God in the flesh, wasn't a stoic, unemotional talking head who had so much perspective that He pain didn't truly affect Him. Reading about His agonized prayer in the garden of Gethsemane brings this home: Jesus experienced abandonment from His friends, fear of suffering, and, beyond that, the feeling that His own Father had abandoned Him. Yes, this entire passage exposes another biblical contradiction. Jesus is part of the one God, yet he feels abandoned and apparently doesn’t seem to know the plan, while at other occasions he shows that he knows his destiny. It doesn’t make much sense. And poor Jesus’ emotional suffering? I think millions of humans have been worse off. Again, if we keep in mind that Jesus was God and that God knew how all this would turn out and that it was worth the trouble, we can conclude: No sacrifice here! Incidentally, these are strange inclusions for a new sect trying to sell their master as deity if not authentic. They have a ring of truth to me. is an understatement. Absurd would rather nail it. And so it rings to me. Mo, I don't have a lot of confidence that "knowledge of how things are going to turn out" does much to dull the suffering of the moment- whether physical or emotional. I know it only helps a little for me. Really? I can’t relate. Doesn’t the vision of an afterlife in God’s redemption ease your mundane suffering?? Doesn’t that give you strength to carry on? I wouldn’t know. But I know you’re only a human and that even if you think you know, there are too many unanswered questions so you can’t really picture what is lying before you. If you are honest with yourself, you can’t even know (in the true sense of the word) if God really exists. Jesus on the other hand knew it was real. Anyway, I can’t speak for you. I only know that it’s always good to know why I’m doing the things I do, especially if I have to go through suffering in order to get there. Right now I’m “suffering” from the stress of my thesis, but I know why I’m exposing myself to this stress. I will profit from this. The cost benefit calculation points at benefit. Naw, I don’t think your point has much force. Of course it helps to know how things will turn out. 5. Five, and most significantly, in addition to the sacrifice of becoming finite, physical torture, mental and emotional anguish, Jesus took our sins upon Himself- the sins of the whole world. Many see this terminology to mean that Jesus suffered wrath from God on our behalf. But however you look at, bearing our sin, in fact, becoming our sin, as you'll see in a second, implies incalculable suffering: What exactly would be incalculable by God...? Nothing. Maybe the reason why you say it's incalculable is because sin is nothing one can literally carry. Or maybe I just don't understand what sin really is? I guess a new thread would be useful here: www.aletheia.proboards76.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=morality&thread=1413 6. Six: Knowing what you're trading doesn't by necessity reduce suffering. And sacrifice isn't defined by risk. It's primarily defined by things given up, and pain endured. What did he give up? How much pain endured? I already said there was suffering involved. God suffered for a couple of hours (or thirty-something years – still a short amount of time in God’s perception) and then he had the eternity of joy. Where is the sacrifice? It’s like investing one dollar and getting a guaranteed billion dollars in return (if one wants to cut this down to material things). And wouldn’t you agree, that taking a risk means to have something to lose and that you can’t really speak of a sacrifice if you don’t lose anything? 7. Lastly, all I've said has to do with Jesus acting sacrificially (we've been looking at sacrifice as a verb) But apart from all of this, Jesus was also a sacrifice (noun) in a very technical sense. From what we can gather in Scripture, the most essential part of what Jesus did for us wasn't how much He suffered, but that He was innocent and yet died on our behalf, as an atoning sacrifice. You’re always leaving out the part that Jesus is God and that God is all powerful and all knowing. I still don’t see the sacrifice. Giving your life and receiving a better life in return isn’t a sacrifice. Suffering for a couple of hours (or let’s say even an entire human lifetime) and receiving eternal redemption in return isn’t suffering either. It’s a good deal. And Jesus knew it. |
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Post by Josh on Aug 29, 2008 7:13:13 GMT -8
1.
You're talking about Jesus, right (as opposed to the Father)? I don't think Jesus was omniscient while on earth, I believe that by relying on the Holy Spirit and His Father, just as we have to do, Jesus was often made aware of things beyond his human capacity. The only difference between Jesus and us was that his reliance upon the Holy Spirit and the Father was perfect- there was clear communication. This communication didn't come automatically, though. It required Jesus to live a disciplined life of prayer and obedience. God Himself, in the flesh, had to learn what it's like for a human to be obedient!
Hebrews 5:7-9
7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
2. Thanks for clearing up the difference between your views on divine sadism and the sacrifice of Christ a bit. I think I see the difference from your perspective now.
3.
Wow. After reading this whole thing, I think we may just see this issue completely differently. I can't see how knowing the future doesn't mean one has nothing to lose. Suffering is suffering. It's better when you know what the outcome will be, granted. That's why part of Jesus went ahead with it with joy. But it was still suffering, it was giving something up, and therefore sacrificial. And it was freely chosen suffering.
But furthermore it seems to me that to you sacrifice involves the risk of different, possibly negative, outcomes. I don't think that's the definition of sacrifice.
4.
It's not terrible to be human (without the sin). But nonetheless we are finite creatures. For us this is good, but for an omnipotent God it is a major surrender.
Is it bad to be an ant? No. But it would be a major surrender/ sacrifice for you to become an ant and suffer in particular ways among them in order to save their colony.
Sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm saying it's uncalculable to us. We know this is the biggest part of the suffering Jesus went through. But we can't calculate it.
Here's how I think of it though- think of all the pain brought about by sin, directly or indirectly that ever occurred and think of that placed squarely on Christ's shoulders.
I know you're going to reply that there's no way to measure this or even begin to define our terms very well (ever occurred, shoulders, etc..). But this is a mystery beyond our fathoming, except in phrases like the ones I'm using.
Mo, I really have to chuckle at this, because I do think this is a sacrifice and that's is the hardest thing in the world for a human, even Jesus, to do:
Luke 9:23-24
23Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
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Post by moritz on Aug 29, 2008 9:23:25 GMT -8
You're talking about Jesus, right (as opposed to the Father)? In the first quote I’m talking about God. The omniscient God knew exactly what would happen to Jesus and he knew that the outcome of “the Jesus measure” would please him. That’s why God had nothing to lose. God would experience human suffering first hand, but that wouldn’t be new to him, because, being omniscient, he already knew what it feels like. I don't think Jesus was omniscient while on earth, I believe that by relying on the Holy Spirit and His Father, just as we have to do, Jesus was often made aware of things beyond his human capacity. The only difference between Jesus and us was that his reliance upon the Holy Spirit and the Father was perfect- there was clear communication. I don’t understand the trinity. And I haven’t met anybody yet that understood it. I have a feeling the trinity is Christian flapdoodle… God Himself, in the flesh, had to learn what it's like for a human to be obedient! Frankly, this doesn’t make any sense to me. Wow. After reading this whole thing, I think we may just see this issue completely differently. I can't see how knowing the future doesn't mean one has nothing to lose. I’ll try to explain. Let’s say you knew for a fact who would win next years Super Bowl. And so you bet all your money on it. What have you got to lose? Nothing! Let’s go one step further. Let’s say you knew for a fact that when you die, you’ll go to heaven for eternity. So what have you got to lose in contemplation of death? Nothing! So let’s move even further: Let’s say you know for a fact that you will go to heaven and even more; that you will achieve all your goals by voluntarily suffering. Alright, that isn’t a really beautiful prospect. But you know for a fact the entire consequences of your action. You know that what you have to gain outweighs your troubles a zillion times. What have you got to lose? Nothing! Suffering is suffering. It's better when you know what the outcome will be, granted. That's why part of Jesus went ahead with it with joy. The word “joy” emphasizes my point. Jesus knew that what he had to go through wasn’t fun, but he knew that it was totally worth it. His cost-benefit calculation was positive. To me, sacrifice means that you actually have to abdicate something, not that you win something. But furthermore it seems to me that to you sacrifice involves the risk of different, possibly negative, outcomes. I don't think that's the definition of sacrifice. I’ve checked different definitions of sacrifice and there’s apparently a discrepancy between what sacrifice actually means and how sacrifice is used in daily speech. Just take this one: “The term is also used metaphorically to describe a short term loss in return for a greater gain” If we take this definition, I will have to agree, that what Jesus did was a sacrifice. But I hope you understand that this doesn’t affect the point I was trying to make. Not even the least. We would have to scratch the word sacrifice out and rename the thread: “Jesus dying on the cross – so what?” The point remains: he had nothing to lose and everything to gain. It's not terrible to be human (without the sin). But nonetheless we are finite creatures. For us this is good, but for an omnipotent God it is a major surrender. But Jesus wasn’t a finite creature. The Lord knew it all the time. When God decided to incarnate, he knew this was just a temporary episode. There was still a part of him supervising it all from heaven, ready to interact. And of course he knew he wouldn’t have to interact cause everything would work out as planed. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm saying it's uncalculable to us. We know this is the biggest part of the suffering Jesus went through. But we can't calculate it. Here's how I think of it though- think of all the pain brought about by sin, directly or indirectly that ever occurred and think of that placed squarely on Christ's shoulders. I know you're going to reply that there's no way to measure this or even begin to define our terms very well (ever occurred, shoulders, etc..). No, I would ask why he would have to absorbe sin. This doesn’t make much sense to me. It’s like saying: “Imagine all the smell brought about by farts that ever occurred and think of that placed in Jesus nostrils.” The reply would be: Yuck! And the reply for the scenario with sin would be: Ouch. The question that remains is: what’s all this for? Why is that supposed to make sense? And there’s a chance you’ll answer: But this is a mystery beyond our fathoming I’d like to highlight this sentence again, because it is ever reappearing. And it reveals the incapacity of Christians to bring different biblical claims together coherently. I hope you understood that. I don’t feel like I said this well. Mo, I really have to chuckle at this, because I do think this is a sacrifice and that's is the hardest thing in the world for a human, even Jesus, to do. After checking the different definitions of sacrifice I understand why you would think it is a sacrifice. But the last part of your sentence, namely “this is the hardest thing to do for a human” can’t be upheld. If I knew what Jesus knew, I would do it too. I see no heroism or grandeur, no selflessness in his “sacrifice”. In my understanding of the word sacrifice, there is no sacrifice. |
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Post by michelle on Aug 29, 2008 19:53:56 GMT -8
Mo, what is your understanding of the word sacrifice? It seems like you believe that if you know something bad is going to happen then when that bad thing happens it can't be considered suffering. Is that right?
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Post by Josh on Aug 29, 2008 19:54:10 GMT -8
I've got time for a quick reply on one point: Since I see God as "outside of time", I see everything as potentially simultaneous to Him, so it's precisely because of the Incarnation at one point in time (from our perspective) that God has always known "what it feels like". Another response might be that there's a difference between "knowing" and "experiencing". Oh, and since it seems to really be paining you every time I say something is beyond our comprehension, I've started a thread: In Defense of Mystery |
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Post by moritz on Aug 31, 2008 6:16:00 GMT -8
Mo, what is your understanding of the word sacrifice? It seems like you believe that if you know something bad is going to happen then when that bad thing happens it can't be considered suffering. Is that right? No. I'm acknowledging the suffering of the Christ. I'm just saying that Christ, in contrast to normal humans, knew why he was doing it. He knew that the profit of his voluntary suffering would outweigh the actual process of suffering. I'm following the rationality of Josh here, who claims that Jobs suffering is completelly redeemed by God. Jesus knew his suffering wouldn't be in vain, he knew he would be the winner. And THAT's no sacrifice for me. To answer your question, a sacrifice to me means, that one has to give something up. Something one can't spare. In my understanding of the word (which admittedly differs from other understandings of the word) a sacrifice doesn't include profit. Jesus totally profitted from his suffering, painful as it might have been. |
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Post by michelle on Sept 1, 2008 9:57:40 GMT -8
Mo, thanks for clarifying your definitions on suffering and sacrifice. It helps me to understand your points more having it spelled out to me that way. I once knew someone who used to call it "breaking it down Barney [the purple dinosaur] style".  |
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Post by moritz on Sept 16, 2008 14:16:26 GMT -8
Can we record as a result of this thread that what Jesus did wasn't really something selfless? That he gained more than he lost?
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Christ died for his bride* - complete sacrifice! 
But He bore the cross because of the "Joy set before Him". He wanted to redeem mankind from there sin. He and the Father where completely unified on this.
