|
|
Post by Josh on Jul 29, 2008 12:39:30 GMT -8
A little stroll down memory lane on the problem of suffering in the book of Job:
Mo wrote:
To which I responded:
To which Mo responded:
|
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Jul 29, 2008 12:58:17 GMT -8
I don't think we ever finished this discussion, but I think this is a good one (sounded like you didn't want to go back here, Mo, but the book of Job is central to the Bible's perspective on suffering. It's true, the book of Job has ironically been the source of amazing comfort to some and a "last straw" in regard to faith to others (for a pointed illustration of this, read Disappointment with God by one of my favorites, Phillip Yancey). Anyway, I'd like to comment on your description of God's actions as abuse for the "fun of a bet". I don't read anywhere in the text that God though the trials He allowed satan to bring Job were "fun". In fact, I'd argue that God, through the inspiration of the text, does quite the opposite- He acknowledges the severe trial of such tests- the anguish, the temptation toward giving up, the suicidal thoughts, etc... In other words, God has given us the book of Job to help us through such trials. God allowing satan to bring disaster to Job wasn't a game to God. It's actually at the heart of the whole point of the universe, as many of us come back to on these forums: love, freely willed. Does a man merely obey and pretend to love God because good things happen to him, or does that obedience and love transcend the circumstance? This reaches a kind of pinnacle (one of many) in Job when he declares in great anguish, " Though He slay me, yet will I hope in Him" Job 13:15a Another cool thing about the book of Job is that Job is allowed to vent his anger against what he perceives to be God's attack on him through satan. (Even Job has a hard time, understandably, not putting the blame ultimately back on God even if he isn't the immediate cause of his troubles). God can handle the complaint, because he understands how near the truth it is. God is responsible for our suffering, but is not to blame. I realize you would say he's both if this is all true, but I don't think the two need go hand in hand. But anyway, the point of the trial is to demonstrate that love freely chosen, wins out in the end. That's a hard truth. Sometimes it does seem that it might have been better for God to have created a bunch of automotons with no choice who were blissful in their ignorance. If I was God  I wouldn't have the will to maintain free will and suffering in order to true love to exist, but most of the time I'm glad He has the werewithal to do so. Is there great mystery to all this? Yes. Can I rationally convince you that this is the best possible way of going about all this for God? No. But then again, should we expect to understand all of God's purpose in this? That might require us to be God. But for me I trust Him in this based on what I've experienced of Him so far as well as the evidence that He exists and is trustworthy in many other things. |
|
|
|
Post by moritz on Jul 29, 2008 13:56:31 GMT -8
I don't read anywhere in the text that God though the trials He allowed satan to bring Job were "fun". In fact, I'd argue that God, through the inspiration of the text, does quite the opposite- He acknowledges the severe trial of such tests- the anguish, the temptation toward giving up, the suicidal thoughts, etc... ooh yeah, isn't there a part in the book where Job, after having lost everything speaks to God something like: What have I done to you to deserve that, I've always had faith in you. And then your understanding, loving God who had such a hard time seeing Job suffering replies something like: How dare you talk like that to me? Who the hell do you think you are. Something like that. Yeah, that's loving, understanding God. God allowing satan to bring disaster to Job wasn't a game to God. It's actually at the heart of the whole point of the universe, as many of us come back to on these forums: love, freely willed. You're building everything on free will, huh? I think that's a bit risky given the facts we have about it. Apart from that it doesn't make any sense. God and Satan suddenly talk like friends as if there was no war between them and God watches Satan torturing him only so he could see what he already knew before the torture: namely that Job would remain faithful to him. The omniscient God wouldn't have needed this kind of proof. Ah why am I discussing this? The good old "let's-fire-as-much-nonsense-at-him-as-we-can-until-he-is-getting-weary-and-gives-up-tactic" is starting to work. Another cool thing about the book of Job is that Job is allowed to vent his anger against what he perceives to be God's attack on him through satan. (Even Job has a hard time, understandably, not putting the blame ultimately back on God even if he isn't the immediate cause of his troubles). God can handle the complaint, because he understands how near the truth it is. Oh, how cool. God can handle a complaint. Well, if I'm not mistaken he can't really handle it but comes along cocky after Job has left everything and dares to complain. But hey, it's so cool of God that he rewards Job and understands that he had a miserable time. That's so... generous! And super loving of course. God is responsible for our suffering, but is not to blame. I realize you would say he's both if this is all true, but I don't think the two need go hand in hand. Oh, well, then I guess the case is open and shut, huh? If he's responsible, then he's the one to blame. Maybe I'm to quick on that cause I'm angry. Maybe you have a reasonable explanation how one can be responsible and NOT to blame unless higher circumstances intervened. Oh wait. God is the highest instance. He can't have bad luck. Well, maybe you can help me out here? But anyway, the point of the trial is to demonstrate that love freely chosen, wins out in the end. That's a hard truth. Sometimes it does seem that it might have been better for God to have created a bunch of automotons with no choice who were blissful in their ignorance. Free will again. It all stands and falls with free will. Or doesn't it? Everything I heard from the mouth of scientists indicates that free will doesn't exist. But if it does, why should it be such a special good that it's important to kick us out of paradise, have us go through all kinds of suffering just so we can have a free will? Christians simply made that up. It's not even logical. I mean, you say God wants us to be free, yet he gives us very limited capacities. It doesn't make sense. But for me I trust Him in this based on what I've experienced of Him so far as well as the evidence that He exists and is trustworthy in many other things. bring the evidence, brother. |
|
|
|
Post by moritz on Jul 29, 2008 15:16:26 GMT -8
Can I rationally convince you that this is the best possible way of going about all this for God? No. By the way, what does that mean? That I can't be convinced cause I'm not rational or that you admit the story isn't rational? |
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Aug 2, 2008 10:23:18 GMT -8
Some interesting stuff between Mo and Chris I thought fits here too (that I might want to respond to should I get the chance):
Mo:
Another rebuttal I know of is that God's mercy in the afterlife outweighs the harms he did on earth. This one often appears with the story of Job. I find it unreasonable because in my book (I know you love my book ) it's immoral to maltreat anybody even if you get a reward later.
Chris:
“Immorality” needs a standard to be judged by and “maltreatment” is in the eye of the beholder, and Job is a very good example of that. Job began accusing God of unjust “maltreatment” until God answered him (read Job 38..”who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge?”). Read Jobs’ perspective after that (Job 42:5-6 “Job 42:5-6… "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes." NKJV). I know from other threads that you read this as a harsh answer by God, but the written word is tricky isn’t it? Without tone and expression, you really can’t get the full picture of what is being communicated. You said in another thread to not take your words too harshly but to imagine you laughing and being sarcastic (paraphrase on my part). I challenge you to do the same with this passage. Read it and imagine God chuckling and using some light-hearted sarcasm towards Job’s pity party and tantrum to help Job see how non-sensical he’s being. Like a parent watching a cute little heart-warming tantrum being thrown by his/her terrible two year old (2nd or 3rd, not 1st born).
God allows suffering...yes, even ordains it at times. But it’s for a purpose and he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek 33:11). Tell me, is it always wrong for me to allow a man to come at my child with a knife? What if the man is a surgeon? It’s a matter of perspective.
Without an eternal perspective, it’s easy to draw the conclusions you do. If this life is all there is, I can see how it would seem unjust for God to let me suffer even the slightest bit. But with an eternal perspective, suffering begins to grow pale and loses its sting. Many Christians went to the arena and to the fiery stake singing hymns and praising God that they were counted worthy to suffer for His name.
|
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Aug 2, 2008 15:46:13 GMT -8
Okay, I have to chime in here a bit.
I kind of disagree with you both in your analysis of the last few chapters of Job.
First off, Chris, imo, the point of God's response isn't to point out that Job has had a pity-party. I don't think God belittles Job's lament. Job's responses throughout, I believe, are to be taken as very valid human complaints against God.
Secondly, Mo, God is not angry with Job, though he does use sacrasm.
God's point is basically, (my paraphrase of the last several chapters):
"you, Job, cannot fully understand My ways. You weren't there from the creation of the universe knowing all the complicated reasons I created things the way they are. I can't even explain it to you in a way that would make sense. Yet, you still trust me, and for that, I will tell your friends that it was you, Job, who spoke more truthfully about me even in the midst of your confusion and grief than those friends of yours with their "stock" wisdom and advice."
The fact that Job 42:7-8 says:
After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has."
shows us indeed that God was not angry with Job or wanted to belittle his complaints, though He did put Job's complaints in perspective.
|
|
|
|
Post by moritz on Aug 8, 2008 0:57:45 GMT -8
Secondly, Mo, God is not angry with Job, though he does use sacrasm. I don't think sarcasm is the appropriate way of dealing with somebody who went through what Job went either. Do you think sarcasm would have been the right way to deal with a Jew who just survived Auschwitz? I hope not. |
|
I wouldn't have the will to maintain free will and suffering in order to true love to exist, but most of the time I'm glad He has the werewithal to do so.
