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Post by Josh on Sept 23, 2014 15:50:30 GMT -8
So, Jaybee, Robin, Chris, and anyone else interested (Alex?), I didn't really hear your response to this argument I made at Horsebrass: 1. IF it's true, as is claimed by both theories of relativity and observation of clocks on the Space Shuttle compared to earth, that time is relative in the sense that time passes at different speeds in different parts of the universe... (see: Time Dilation) 2. And if it's true that God is omnipresent/ present equally in all locations within the universe Doesn't it follow that... 3. God must transcend earth's time references? 4. And therefore it is, in some sense, nonsensical to say that he is trapped in our experience of time along with us? |
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Post by jaybee on Sept 23, 2014 20:39:27 GMT -8
I'll have to respond to the rest of your post another time, but I would like to point out that I would not see it as "trapped" (OP point #4), but "voluntarily participating" in.
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Post by jaybee on Sept 23, 2014 20:47:37 GMT -8
Also, to be present at one place on earth where it is 12:01am, and be dually present on the other side of the world where it is 12:01pm, at the same time, is to be present in the same "movement" in my opinion.
Time travel is not about traversing time zones, but traversing a moment of existence no matter the time zone to another moment...
IMO
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Post by Josh on Sept 24, 2014 12:58:21 GMT -8
Fair enough. A more neutral phrase would be limited, or self-limited.
But time zone differences are different than time dilation. Time zone differences are based on human convention. Time dilation actually means that a person who comes back from space is actually slightly younger than they would have been if they hadn't left. Granted, that's hard to conceptualize, and of course, it doesn't mean that person begins existing in a completely different dimension, but think of it this way: if that person could somehow simultaneously stay on earth AND travel to space, would they be older or younger than someone who simply stayed here?
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Post by jaybee on Sept 25, 2014 9:46:06 GMT -8
I suppose one must decide in what way the space traveler is slightly younger. Due to the trauma the human body endures from living in space, a space traveler can have many negative health impacts from their time.
Therefore, while scientists might say the travelers are younger on the clock, I think their real age from wear and tear might be considered older.
I like the concept of "real" age where a calculation is made of ones lifestyle to determine how old they really are. Smoking, drinking, etc. makes one older than their years, and exercising, drinking enough water, etc. can make one younger than their years. Thus, age can be seen to more relate to something other than time.
Even in the conceptualization of time travel, the time traveler can turn back history's clock, but they still arrive at an earlier date the same age they are when the began their travel, and they are still aging.
Thus, a 45 year old time traveler with cancer and two weeks left to live, can go back in time 500 years, but he is still 45 years old with cancer and two weeks left to live. He has gone backward on the timeline, but has not stopped his own progression of time relative to himself as an individual - age.
If one aged backwards as one travelled backwards, then it would be impossible to consider any practical time travel as science wants. To go backwards beyond one's birth would make a person nonexistent, and to go forwards past one's death would make a person also nonexistent.
For these reasons I think time should not be considered in the idea of days, minutes, seconds, but as something else.
It is this something else that I would say God is subservient (by choice) to. God might be outside of the constraint of days, but I think he is to a degree within the constraints of something else. The best way I can describe what that something else is, is relationship.
God somehow experiences relationship with us in somewhat "real time," not knowing the future. It makes him have to adjust his plans at times, it causes him to experience genuine joy, surprise, and sorrow, it allows him to even currently love the one know who will hurt him in the future, and more.
That's the best idea I have for now...
God has subjected himself to relationship with his creation, which prevents him knowing everything that will happen in the future.
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Post by christopher on Sept 27, 2014 12:47:17 GMT -8
Most of these time/space concepts are beyond my depth.
However, I would just say that I think that it's a category mistake to think of omnipresence in a spatial manner, placing God at different parts of the universe simultaneously to prove that He is not "trapped" by time. Therefore, I think the opening argument is a bit of a nonsequitur.
I would rather say that God is not trapped by our space because He is not physical. We measure time in relation to our space. But the same can't be said about God because part of the equation would be missing (space).
So if we look at time as sequential events or change rather than movement in space or entropy, then it could be said that God experiences time in some form or another. It would be hard for me to believe that God never has a new thought or experience when he relates to created being that He made as free agents. He had to IMO in order for a finite universe to even exist.
Also, I couldn't imagine that He could be said to be personal if there isn't a mutually dynamic relationship with Him.
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Post by Josh on Sept 30, 2014 11:58:23 GMT -8
At the end of the day all of us are out of her depth on this one. Especially since none of us are astrophysicists. But even they are in many ways out of their depth. Chris, your point about God being spirit is well taken. It may calling to question my argument, but I'm not sure. And of course sending spirit and not related to matter could have a lot of implications on him being timeless anyway, unless one goes with Jay's definition of time. But honestly that seems like striking out into the dark even more than some of the common thumbnail scientific definitions of time. I just want to say one more time that I do believe it's important that God is genuinely surprised and can have a "tuneful" relationship with humanity. But I think scripture also teaches that he knows the future completely. I would prefer that we hold those seemingly contradictory statements in tension knowing that we cannot fully comprehend them. If we pick one side of the equation and force the other to submit to it I think we lose some important facets of our (albeit limited) understanding of God.
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