Punishment?

[Josh]

"Punishment" is frowned on in most psychological, pedagogical, and parental circles these days.  This is usually because it is claimed that punishment is not remedial to the transgressor.  


Should we be quick to disavow punishment in favor of other terms?  Or is there a valid application of punishment? 

[Josh]

Here is some of my thinking on the subject:

Punishment is a painful negative reinforcer, that is, it may influence a person to change their behavior through fear of a past or future punitive action.  Many question the effectiveness of negative reinforcement.  I will grant that it only seems to work on some types of personalities, and even then, doesn't seem to be very effective in changing long-term heart attitudes. 

Remedial correction is, alternatively, a way of retraining the behaviors of a person through a combination of incentive (positive reinforcement), natural and/ or artificial consequences, psychological assistance, and habit reformation.    It seems to be superior to punishment in actually changing a person's heart.

All this I will grant, but what I think is often overlooked is the question of whether punishment of evil and wrongdoers is possibily important not for the wrongdoer themselves, but for the innocent and for the sake of justice.

Let's take the most extreme and obvious example here: the death penalty is punishment and serves little or no remedial value.  Still, does it accomplish something important for society at large or for "the sake of justice"?

And another question: what does the Bible say about Punishment and/or/vs. Correction?

[Alex]

It's worth noting that capitol punishment intentionally denies the opportunity for restitution or heart change, working against correcting behavior by denying opportunity for it.

As a correction it would have to be seen more as a warning for others than a correction to the sinner. Even the bible refers to it as a warning:
Deuteronomy 13:10-11 Deuteronomy 17:12-13 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again. Anyone who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the Lord your God is to be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel. All the people will hear and be afraid, and will not be contemptuous again.

There is also an indication of collective responsibility in the passage.

Last thought about capitol; it is also an avenue of vengeance. There's a challenging question whether vengence has a place as part of the healing process for victims, a sense of being recognized through justice - or if it distracts from true healing. 'A Time to Kill' was a good presentation of the powerful pull to vengeance and the cry for blood.

[Josh]

It's worth noting that capitol punishment intentionally denies the opportunity for restitution or heart change, working against correcting behavior by denying opportunity for it. 

I think I did    when I said "the death penalty is punishment and serves little or no remedial value", right?  Or are you just agreeing it was well worth me noting 

Last thought about capitol; it is also an avenue of vengeance. There's a challenging question whether vengence has a place as part of the healing process for victims, a sense of being recognized through justice - or if it distracts from true healing. 'A Time to Kill' was a good presentation of the powerful pull to vengeance and the cry for blood.

I'm interested in this question too.  I'm not familiar with "A Time to Kill" I must admit.  Care to enlighten me/ us?

[Alex]

A fair point. I suppose what I was stressing is than capitol punishment is anti-restitution. Not merely on a scale where restitution is 1 - no restitution is 0; it would be a -1 (assuming vengeance is left out as a form of restitution, or perhaps the cost of incarceration).

(spoiler alert)
'A Time to Kill' is set in the deep south. A man's 10 year old daughter is cruely beaten, raped, and left for dead by two men. Being African-American and the perpetrators white; the father feared that the men would be acquitted - a similar crime years before having had that outcome. The father in anguish and rage ambushed and shot down the perpetrators; setting the plot for the movie as it tells the story of his trial and the emotionally charged struggle of the community to reconcile race, vengeance, justice and the rule of law.

As an almost spoiler, I found the closing argument to be a particularly profound monologue; capturing and distilling our ability as people to externalize tragedy to guard our emotions; and in so doing forgetting the true anguish of victims.

[Josh]

A fair point. I suppose what I was stressing is than capitol punishment is anti-restitution. Not merely on a scale where restitution is 1 - no restitution is 0; it would be a -1 (assuming vengeance is left out as a form of restitution, or perhaps the cost of incarceration). 

Got ya.


Thanks for the plug for a "Time to Kill" too.

[Alex]

Now about punishment as a form of correction. How much merit and when?

[Josh]

Well, it's basically negative reinforcement, which does work clinically to change certain behaviors.  I think the potential problem with negative reinforcement is not that it doesn't work, but it can have unintended "side effects", so to speak, most notably increasing the power of fear or anxiety in a person.

[Alex]

I agree. The brain is much better at recording negative experiences than positive. How many of us remember the first (and often only) time we got our hand caught in a car door. Arguably this means it's much more effective at developing a response against key threats.

The unintended lessons from negative experiences can be debilitating, however. Especially if the spirit of the punishment is emotionally charged. Even then it's hard to imagine situations it would reinforce acceptance, well being, vulnerability and positive risk taking. I'd be curious if there are any good examples where it worked well.

[stevek]

Mar 13, 2013 16:22:11 GMT -8 Josh said:

"Punishment" is frowned on in most psychological, pedagogical, and parental circles these days.  This is usually because it is claimed that punishment is not remedial to the transgressor.  


Should we be quick to disavow punishment in favor of other terms?  Or is there a valid application of punishment? 

"Punishment" is a broad term that could refer to an activity that is either remedial or karmic.  Let's say that someone is addicted to heroin and so they rob from people's houses.  A judge determines that the thief should go to a year long in house treatment so they can stop the drug, thus no longer stealing.  That is a remedial purpose, but treatment is still a punishment.  The person is separated from friends and family, and will often have to leave behind many friends.  There is at least a thirty day black out period.  We could call all that discipline, but because the treatment is forced (or at least chosen instead of years in prison) it is a punishment.

There is a kind of punishment that is beneficial to society, but not beneficial to the one being punished, which would be separation.  If someone refuses to acknowledge their wrong doing as problematic for others, they should be separated.  This is the idea of a "time-out" and it is the best reason for prisons.  This safeguards those who might be harmed by anti-social behavior.

The other reason for punishment is karmic justice.  Some say that karmic justice reduces wrong-doing by helping people realize that their crime has a consequence.  That assumes rationality in those doing the crime.  Many crimes are done by compulsion, such as crimes done in rage or under an addictive drive.  Those crimes aren't done rationally and so karmic justice doesn't prevent a single one of those.  Many feel that it is just simple justice, "eye for eye".  

However, I find that karmic justice is rarely just when accomplished by human beings. Humans often overpunish or do not know enough details of a crime to give just punishment.  Thus, I see that there is a place for remedial punishment and some protective punishment, karmic punishment should be left to God.  Only God knows what punishment is truly just and will give what is just to all. 

[Josh]

Good points, mostly agreed. The only issue I'm not convinced on is capital punishment for murder in some cases.  I think that may be an instance where whether remedial or not (and one could argue for that even) execution can be just.

For my thoughts on that, see here:  The Death Penalty?