Sheol, Hades, Hell, Gehenna, Lake of Fire, etc...

[Josh]

So, it would be helpful to me for the larger discussion about universal reconciliation if we could throw out our current definitions of some terms so that we know the meanings each of us are pouring into these terms.

Here’s my current perspective on what these Bible terms means:

Sheol: the abode of the dead before Christ’s “liberating of the captives” at his death, containing both the blessed dead (those at “Abraham’s bosom”) and the unrighteous dead.

Hades: a similar Greco-Roman notion about the abode of the dead, except with no positive spin (ala Abraham’s bosom)

Hell: the abode of those remaining in Sheol after Christ’s liberation of the captive and the abode of those who die apart from Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, all awaiting the future judgment

Gehenna: a reference to a physical location outside of Jerusalem which serves as metaphor for hell (or the lake of fire).

Heaven: those this term has several meanings, one could be the place or state of the dead who have died in Christ who await the Resurrection.

The New Heavens and the New Earth: though in some sense, we have begun to enter into the “new heavens and the new earth” already, I see this as the final abode of the resurrected saints.

The Lake of Fire: I see this as the abode of those judged to be without Christ’s righteousness at the final judgment.

[Josh]

Paul,

Somehow I accidentally deleted your reply last night while I was reading it apparently (that's what the security log says). I guess somehow I tapped on the pad on the laptop on the delete button on mistake. Really weird. Sorry about that.

If you can, please post again!

[christopher]

Here's my understanding:

Sheol and Hades: Death. Not an actual place at all, simply a symbolic way of saying "death" by associating it with a place.

Hell: Cover over. A misused word that does not fit any assumed Greek or Hebrew equivalent (tartarus, hades, gehenna) in the bible. It doesn't belong in any translation IMO. You "hell" potatoes, not people.

Gehenna: What you said. A physical place outside Jerusalem that Jesus used to describe the pending judgment of the nation in 70AD. And actually, He may have been using the word quite literally. I believe the Valley of Hinnom was used to burn the corpses in that war if I remember right.

Heaven: 3 uses: the sky, outer space, and a symbolic way of describing the spiritual realm.

The New Heavens and the New Earth: This one is complicated. I lean toward seeing this as the New Covenant and Kingdom of God. Like you, I believe it is already begun, but awaits a more glorious manifestation.

Lake of Fire: Symbolic depiction of God's judgment. In my mind, it symbolizes a permanent and unstoppable defeat of those that oppose Him. Not necessarily an actual place of punishment, correction, etc.

I have more to say on the Rev 20 thing, I just haven't had the time to totally flesh it out. I don't pretend to have a solid grasp on all this afterlife stuff either, but merely a direction I lean based on the available data.

[robin]

Hell: Cover over. A misused word that does not fit any assumed Greek or Hebrew equivalent (tartarus, hades, gehenna) in the bible. It doesn't belong in any translation IMO.

Agreed 100%

You "hell" potatoes, not people.

;D

[Josh]

So, I don't have time to do this, can someone take me on a quick history of the word "hell"?

Still, to me "hell" is nearly synonmous with sheol, hades, and death, except it could only refer to those in "torment" in Hades.

[Josh]

Chris wrote:

Gehenna: What you said. A physical place outside Jerusalem that Jesus used to describe the pending judgment of the nation in 70AD. And actually, He may have been using the word quite literally. I believe the Valley of Hinnom was used to burn the corpses in that war if I remember right.

So, when Jesus says that his audience shouldn't fear "him who can kill the body" but him who call "destroy the body AND soul" in Gehenna, how do you see the literal Gehenna as a place where the soul in particular might be destroyed?

[robin]

So, when Jesus says that his audience shouldn't fear "him who can kill the body" but him who call "destroy the body AND soul" in Gehenna, how do you see the literal Gehenna as a place where the soul in particular might be destroyed?

So, as Chris and you note, Gehenna is the valley outside of Jerusalem. We must now determine why Jesus decided to use Gehenna to describe Judgment, and this may help us in determine what kind of Judgment he is referring to. Keep in mind that the importance of the term Gehenna would not have been lost on his listeners, as it is lost on many today. Lets consider what Jeremiah said about gehenna or Ben-hinnom (same thing).

Jer. 19:6
therefore, behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-hinnom, but rather the valley of Slaughter.
and

Jer 7:31-32
31"And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.
32 "Therefore, behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when it will no more be called Topheth, or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of the Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth because there is no other place.

I think it is possible that Jesus is referring to a national Judgment that is so complete (70AD) and in this case the nation will not be restored as it was in the earlier case in Jeremiah. However, if Jesus was referring to destroying the soul in the afterlife, perhaps Hades or Sheol would have been a better term. But even then it is not a given that God could not restore that which he destroyed, or lost.

2 Peter 3:5-7

5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Also

Lu 15:6
"And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'

Lost is the same Greek word as destroy (apollumi). See also Luke 15:4, 8, 9 and the prodigal son.

It is obvious that this word (apollumi) is used, at times, to describe total destruction, and no restoration. However, I don't see why we should apply that meaning to the human soul. When speak of individuals, I believe lost is a better understanding or translation of the word.

Robin

[Josh]

Matthew 10:28

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]

Robin:

We must now determine why Jesus decided to use Gehenna to describe Judgment, and this may help us in determine what kind of Judgment he is referring to

.

Well, I think he was using Gehenna as a great metaphor for judgment. And I can definitely see a forewarning of God's judgment on Israel in AD 70. However, he mentions both soul and body being destroyed. So he seems to be saying that God will/ can bring a physical judgment but can also along with that bring spiritual judgment/ destruction. Thus, Gehenna becomes a metaphor for both physical and spiritual judgment. Isn't it obvious that he can't only be talking about a physical judgment?


Robin, great (and interesting) points about the words for destroy/ lost, etc.. However, I wasn't trying to say that this verse is a strike against universal reconciliation, just that I think it's clear that Jesus is warning about both physical AND spiritual consequences and therefore Gehenna can be an apt metaphor for the lake of fire.

[christopher]

So, when Jesus says that his audience shouldn't fear "him who can kill the body" but him who call "destroy the body AND soul" in Gehenna, how do you see the literal Gehenna as a place where the soul in particular might be destroyed?

Yep, this is one verse that can definitely be problematic to seeing Gehenna strictly as the just the dump outside. There's even some evidence in older Jewish writings that the rabbi's used the term Gehenna to speak of an afterlife place of torment and that may be what Jesus was referring to in speaking to His disciples in the missionary discourse here. I don't know whether or not He's agreeing with the intertestamental Rabbi's, telling the disciples to fear God, or telling them to fear the temptation of idolatry (which is why the Valley of Hinnom became what it was).

But for reasons that Robin has already cited (usage precedent in OT), and NT Wright gives (about Jesus' vocation as a prophet of judgment) I tend to see the warnings about Gehenna to refer to the pending destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Is there an underlying message about afterlife there? Possibly. But I don't insist on it and I see no reason to abandon the other evidence which is overwhelming in my mind.

By the way, the word for soul there (pseuche) seems to mean something different than the word used for an immortal rational spirit (pneuma). Look at what one Lexicon says.

NT:5590 psuche (psoo-khay'); from NT:5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from NT:4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from NT:2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew OT:5315, OT:7307 and OT:2416):
KJV - heart (+-ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)