If you cannot love an eternal torment god #2

[rodgertutt]

If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.
www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/ChurchFathers.htm
www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
www.tentmaker.org/books/DoctrineOfRetribution.htm

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 70 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that are related to this same subject.
www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

This next url sums up the end result of all three
www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!


Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.
www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in kolasis aionian

Also see
www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

For anyone who cannot love an endless-hell god ---
BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST RESOURCES

Copy and paste the following urls into the address bar
richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
www.christianuniversalist.org
www.geocities.com/kencallen/inquire2.html
Also see
Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,
www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html
www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)
and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at
greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
and the many entries at www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
show just how much this information is helping people.
Also see www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 70 years old.

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"
www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

POST SCRIPT: For those of you who believe the Bible teaches annihilation rather than universal salvation, consider the following,
www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

[Josh]

Rodger,
I happen to be reading through the Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis right now. Lewis seems to have had some universalist leanings akin to those of George MacDonald. Have you read the Great Divorce and what do you think of Lewis' speculations on the nature of hell?

[rodgertutt]

Jan 13, 2009 9:08:50 GMT -8 Josh said:

Rodger,
I happen to be reading through the Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis right now. Lewis seems to have had some universalist leanings akin to those of George MacDonald. Have you read the Great Divorce and what do you think of Lewis' speculations on the nature of hell?

Josh I think C.S. Lewis may have been a universalist (or at least an annihilationist).
I love this statement that C.S. Lewis said.
“The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

SATAN’S SALVATION ETCETERA - Grace super-exceeding!!!

Copy and paste into Google
THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, Col. 1:20, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.
Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries.
Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.
But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

Copy and paste into Google
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS
www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/reconciliation-heavens.htm

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

Copy and paste into Google
THE LAKE OF FIRE EBY

See www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF GOD'S GRACE WHICH IS ABLE AND DETERMINED TO SUCCESSFULLY INFLUENCE THE MOST STUBBORN OF WILLS.

We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.

CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm

[Josh]

Rodger-

Two more questions:

What DO you envision hell to be like?

Do you think Churches should tolerate a diversity of opinions on the subject of hell or unanimously insist upon universal reconciliation?

[rodgertutt]

Jan 13, 2009 11:41:48 GMT -8 Josh said:

Rodger-
Two more questions:
What DO you envision hell to be like?

Do you think Churches should tolerate a diversity of opinions on the subject of hell or unanimously insist upon universal reconciliation?

I think "kolasis aionain" which means age-during corrective chastisement, will be an experience that will get rid of any self-will that is in opposition to God's will and will cause the rebellious to reach out for the salvation that Jesus has provided and sooner or later will give to all fallen creatures. I think that both it's intensity and duration will vary, depending on how much of it God's sees each fallen creature may require.

As far as churches are concerned, I think it will always be true that they will choose the point of view that the strongest sets of influences have on their minds.

We can only offer the reasons why we believe in universal salvation. If those reasons don't convince some there really is nothing we can do about that is there? But the reasons are so powerful to me that they enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and I have a lot of evidence that other people have been helped in the same way.
I'm 70 years old now.

I like what Fidel Castro said in his retirement speech.
He said "I have been a soldier in the war of ideas."
That's what I like to consider myself - "a soldier in the war of ideas" within Christianity.
In fact Rodger means "God's warrior." :-)

For anyone who may be interested, IMHO three of the best online UR websites are
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

[christopher]

Hi Rodger,

I'm sympathetic to the UR view, but Castro may not be the best banner man for your cause bro.

[Josh]

Well, it's like Stalin once said....

Just kidding. It's good to find true words wherever.

Thanks for the answers. Much appreciated!

As far as churches are concerned, I think it will always be true that they will choose the point of view that the strongest sets of influences have on their minds.

Yeah, this tends to be true. But as a church we try to truly allow for a variety of positions on secondary issues and to give some voice to each. '

What church background do you come from? Have you found a church enivronment that meshes with your distinctives?

[rodgertutt]

Jan 13, 2009 20:40:55 GMT -8 christopher said:

Hi Rodger,

I'm sympathetic to the UR view, but Castro may not be the best banner man for your cause bro.

Actually, were it not for man's greediness, I think socialism might be an acceptable political alternative - IMHO
But then I've never been much of a political thinker.
I admire Castro for his tenacity to his convictions, whether or not I agree with them.

[rodgertutt]

Jan 13, 2009 21:24:12 GMT -8 Josh said:

Well, it's like Stalin once said....

Just kidding. It's good to find true words wherever.

Thanks for the answers. Much appreciated!

As far as churches are concerned, I think it will always be true that they will choose the point of view that the strongest sets of influences have on their minds.

Yeah, this tends to be true. But as a church we try to truly allow for a variety of positions on secondary issues and to give some voice to each. '

What church background do you come from? Have you found a church enivronment that meshes with your distinctives?

I was raised in several eternal torment teaching churches.
But at the age of 28 my inabilitlty to successfully emotianally cope with the idea that God would let anyone suffer forever caught up with me, and I had a nervous breakdown over it that lasted for twelve years. I realized that I simply could not love an endless-hell god.
Nearly all of my Christian fellowship since then has been, first by surface mail, and now on the internet.

MY TRIBUTE TO RAY PRINZING

Ray Prinzing is my hero. His writings can be Googled up and read online. Just type in Ray Prinzing.

During my twelve year nervous breakdown caused by my inability to emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever in hell, every morning, as I washed my family’s dishes, I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing’s many tapes.

I have listened to 178 of them several times, and 23 of them many times

In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH and gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.

Many people have a hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.

Ray Prinzing is that hero to me.

For several years my 96 year old dad called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing’s writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray’s tapes.

As I listened to Ray’s tapes during my nervous breakdown (1966-78) I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation. (I’m 70 years old now)

My panic attacks completely stopped.

And now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered.

The current issues and many back issues of UNSEARCHABLE RICHES magazine (started in 1909) from the CONCORDANT PUBLISHING CONCERN, and the GRACE AND TRUTH magazine from England have both been a great help to me.

In addition to Ray Prinzing’s tapes and writings there is one particular book and one particular set of tapes that have been very influential in my life.

The book is A.E. Knoch’s ALL IN ALL. In spite of the claim that there are contradictions in it, and in spite of “cult-buster” Don Hewey’s other attempts to discredit it, (arguments to which Richard Condon has responded), ALL IN ALL remains, in my opinion, one of the best of all the many books that I have read in support of the Bible teaching universal transformation.

Don Hewey is a believer in the inspiration of the King James Version. When he accuses A.E. Knoch of "contradicting the Bible," in many cases what he really means is that A.E. Knoch contradicts the KJV, because the Concordant Translation does not rely on the Received Text from which the KJV was translated. Don Hewey therefore also attacks the RSV, the NIV, and other modern translations. For this reason much of what Don writes just doesn't make any sense.

As far as Knoch calling the life that Lazarus will be raised to as it being eonian and unending, it is both. Lazarus will have unending life and that life will allow him to live through the oncoming eons which is called '"eonian life."

But even if Don Hewey’s criticisms had any merit, they would still not detract from the fact that this book IMHO proves that the Bible teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

Richard Condon’s detailed rebuttal of Don Hewey’s criticisms of ALL IN ALL can be read at
gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm
Hewey's arguments against A.E. Knoch's book ALL IN ALL are the same ones that he uses against A.C.Thomas in QUESTIONS WITHOUT ANSWERS. Richard Condon responds to them one by one.

The tapes that I referred to are a set of eight 90 minute cassettes called HUMAN CHOICE AND THE DEITY OF GOD by James Coram. I have listened to this set of tapes several dozens of times and consider my knowledge of their content to be priceless.

Both ALL IN ALL and the HUMAN CHOICE tapes can be obtained online at
www.concordant.org/

Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but his influence is so wide spread that he will not be forgotten on this earth for many, many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!

[rodgertutt]

No one actually behaves like they believe in eternal hell

Last Sunday, Rev. Smith preached a powerful message on the second coming of Christ, and the last judgment. He boldly laid the grim destiny of mankind before his congregation.

After his sermon and the closing prayer, he announced: ‘We’re all meeting at Kingdom Park this afternoon at 1 p.m. for our Annual Fellowship Banquet. Men, don’t forget your golf clubs, and the pastries, Ladies!’

The reality that our lives can go on so casually after such a heart wrenching sermon proves one of three possibilities:

1. We are totally oblivious to the horror of everlasting punishment.

2. If we are not oblivious, then in our heart of hearts, we really do not believe it.

3. Or, (and please brace yourself and forgive me for saying so), we must be the most despicable, pathetic, detestable, wretched, and loathsome creatures in the universe worthy of the severest punishment.

The atheist Nitschke said, “If I believed in eternal hell I would crawl across England on my knees on cut glass to take the gospel to just one person.”

There is Hope Beyond Hell. And not just hope as the world defines hope. We have the full assurance of Scripture that God has no intention of letting anyone be tormented forever in hell.

He is about the business of bringing all into subjection to Him, reconciling all until Himself, that one day He will be All in all. And not a single lamb will be lost.

Be another voice among Believers in this present day to proclaim God’s correct and full evangel.
He is indeed the Saviour of all!

HOPE BEYOND HELL (online reading) - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf

[Josh]

Rodger,

So, what is your response to someone who says to your message, "Well, great, I guess I might as well live my life like I want to because in the end it will be all right after all!"?

I can anticipate what you might say, but I'm curious how you've approached answering this response.

[robin]

Rodger,

So, what is your response to someone who says to your message, "Well, great, I guess I might as well live my life like I want to because in the end it will be all right after all!"?

I can anticipate what you might say, but I'm curious how you've approached answering this response.

I'm not Rodger, but I would return to you with this question. Do you, as a Christian, worship God because he is lovely and you know his goodness and compassion, or are you simply afraid of hell, and therefore avoid doing something you love (sinning) in order to avoid it's consequences (eternal hell)?

Someone who falls into the second category may want to consider whether they follow Jesus because they love God, or fear Him, and what he will do to them if they don't submit to Jesus.

Robin

[rodgertutt]

Jan 15, 2009 12:06:05 GMT -8 Josh said:

Rodger,

So, what is your response to someone who says to your message, "Well, great, I guess I might as well live my life like I want to because in the end it will be all right after all!"?

I can anticipate what you might say, but I'm curious how you've approached answering this response.

Here is how J. Preston Eby responds to that kind of reasoning.
His language is harsher than I would use, but it does represent how I think about it.

"There are always those people who object to this truth on the grounds that the preaching of universal salvation will make Christians and unsaved careless. I can hear the unbelieving say, "If I believed that all men were to be saved eventually, I would just go out in the world and enjoy myself. What is the use of going through all these things we have to endure, if we're going to be saved in the end anyway?"

Such ridiculous talk only reveals the true inner condition of the one who makes such as assertion. It shows that he has very little love for God, but is serving Him only out of fear of going to hell, as a slave in fear of a tyrant. If such a person had the fear of hell removed from him it is obvious that he would promptly tell God to go to hell and then proceed to drown himself in devilish pleasures and fleshly pursuits. I have no hesitation in saying that any man who says that if all are going to be saved in the end we might as well eat, drink, and be merry, is a devil at heart, and convicts himself by his own words. If the wages of sin were removed, he would immediately go out and begin to live it up in the world, serving both the flesh and the devil. He has no love for God at all, and is a hypocrite.

If your heart is that much inclined to the world and your love for God is no greater, then you better go back into the world. People who want to live careless will always find an excuse to be careless and they will have to suffer the result of their carelessness both now and in the day of judgment. The knowledge of God's gracious purpose does not make true men of God careless. It makes them long to become a part of His will and an instrument in His plan of the ages. We can embrace every travail in understanding, grace, and love, when we clearly see it is working for eternal good according to His purpose which He purposed in Christ before the ages began."

www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/all-saved.htm

[Josh]

Thanks for the responses, guys. I think it's important to put this out there in fleshing out how this view might be holistically applied.

One sidenote I might add, though, is that while I certainly don't think fear is the best motivator to obey God, it does have it's place. The Scripture does at times speak of the fear of hell in order to sober us up to think about the consequences of our actions:

Matthew 10:28

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy* both soul and body in hell.

Hebrews 10:26-27

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume* the enemies of God.

I think George MacDonald said it nicely when he said that God desires us as sons but will tolerate us as slaves for as long as is necessary. Sons are motivated by love; slaves by fear. But obeying is still better than rebellion.

OK, so another question for you (Robin, Rodger, anyone else)

Couldn't your view be seen as impinging on free will? If it's a forgone conclusion that God will bring us to submission and acceptance of his grace, then what happens to the freedom to choose Him? I personally liked where C.S. Lewis was going with this in The Great Divorce, but what do you think?


*by the way, how do "u.r."ers treat words like "destroy" and "consume", words which seem more at home with either the e.t. or annihilation views?

[rodgertutt]

Jan 15, 2009 21:29:49 GMT -8 Josh said:

Thanks for the responses, guys. I think it's important to put this out there in fleshing out how this view might be holistically applied.
One sidenote I might add, though, is that while I certainly don't think fear is the best motivator to obey God, it does have it's place. The Scripture does at times speak of the fear of hell in order to sober us up to think about the consequences of our actions:
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy* both soul and body in hell.
Hebrews 10:26-27
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume* the enemies of God.
I think George MacDonald said it nicely when he said that God desires us as sons but will tolerate us as slaves for as long as is necessary. Sons are motivated by love; slaves by fear. But obeying is still better than rebellion.

OK, so another question for you (Robin, Rodger, anyone else)

Couldn't your view be seen as impinging on free will? If it's a forgone conclusion that God will bring us to submission and acceptance of his grace, then what happens to the freedom to choose Him? I personally liked where C.S. Lewis was going with this in The Great Divorce, but what do you think?

*by the way, how do "u.r."ers treat words like "destroy" and "consume", words which seem more at home with either the e.t. or annihilation views?

Pride says, "I got myself saved by properly cooperating with God."
Humility says, "God laid hold on me by His saving grace and CAUSED Jesus to be "choice" in my heart no thanks to myself at all; just like He did for Saul of Tarsus who became the apostle Paul when a light from heaven blinded him and Jesus said, “I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.” And Paul said, “Lord, what will you have me do.”
God’s desire, and ability, and intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved will SUPERCEED the will of the most stubborn of sinners because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.

I tend to agree with J. Preston Eby about "free will."
Here is what he thinks
www.godfire.net/eby/freeagent.htm

Also, here is what Richard Condon thinks about it.
If God is really not willing that any perish, then why will they perish? Don't give me this free will nonsense. "No man can come to Me," Jesus said, "except the Father draw him" (John 6:44). Salvation is indeed a gift from God, sovereignly given, to whomever God chooses, when He chooses, and He will indeed grant it to all mankind, in due time (Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). It does not depend on man's acceptance. Left to themselves, no man would ever choose God (Rom. 3:10-11). At the present time, God bestows benefits of life, food, health, rain, etc, to saints and sinners alike (Acts 17:25). He also has ordained for all mankind to experience a portion of both good and evil as well. The experiences of life are all preparatory to, and in anticipation of, our eternal life with God.

Some say all are given equal opportunity . . . "? Nonsense. This is patently untrue. The Scriptures clearly show that all mankind was plunged into it's present state of being lost by the actions of one man, Adam (Rom. 5:12). All mankind are born sinners. In the history of the world, very few of mankind have ever been given the opportunity to believe in the "only name given under heaven, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Salvation is a gift, sovereignly given to those of God's choice. It was procured by the obedience of One Man, Christ Jesus, and His death on the cross (Rom. 5:15-18). It is for all mankind, it is presently enjoyed by all who believe, and will be bestowed on all mankind in due time (Romans 3:22, Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). God's mercy is based on the fact that all sin has been judged in the person of His Son. God has subjected the whole creation to the experience of evil, in order to extend mercy to all (Rom 8:20). Romans 1:20 says that man is without excuse for denying God's existence. But the free gift of salvation has not yet been revealed to all mankind; only to a few now, in due time to all (Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6).
His website is at
www.gtft.org/

Also I found James Coram, director of THE CONCORDANT PUBLISHING CONCERN very good on the subject of "free will" at
concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html

By the way, Richard Condon's extensive library of dozens of writers of Christian Biblical Universalism is wonderful to read!!
GOD’S TRUTH LIBRARY
www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html
IN THE GARDEN
www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html

Regarding the words "destroy" and "perish", see
www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm
and
hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction3.html

[rodgertutt]

Also here is more on why we choose universal salvation rather than annihilation.

ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

WHAT ABOUT THE ANNIHILATION OF THE WICKED?
www.christian-universalism.com/faq/annihilation.html