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Post by carebear on Jun 2, 2010 12:27:37 GMT -8
Thoughts?
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Post by Josh on Jun 2, 2010 15:41:45 GMT -8
intense!
I have some thoughts, but it'll take a while to organize them. I am very curious to hear about this from others as well.
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Post by rbbailey on Jun 2, 2010 20:45:42 GMT -8
I'm torn on the whole thing with the latest developments in Israel. The stuff with the ship was obviously a set-up, and Israel is not the country it once was, or they would have seen it coming and conducted themselves differently. Of course, those two sentences are very loaded, and I don't even have the time to be here discussing it!!  |
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Post by robin on Jun 3, 2010 7:00:49 GMT -8
Without a doubt. I fear that in the months to come we could see our world change significantly!
Personally, I fear most for Israel's future. What other country in the world would be asked to endure what this tiny country is dealing with? Israel must be allowed to protect itself by whatever means are necessary. But something has to give. Iran could go nuclear anytime, and Turkey has withdrawn it's ambassador from Israel and is sending it's Navy to escort the next flotillas through the blockade around Gaza.
Many Christians and Jews are simply relying of the thought that God will protect Israel in any circumstance based on their eschatology. I pray that Israel 's government is taking a far more practical approach.
I'm also embarrassed by the Obama's administration's treatment of Israel. I fear that the actions (and inaction) of our government is encouraging the anti-Semites in the world to move against Israel.
This video will explain some of my concerns.
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Post by Josh on Jun 4, 2010 21:57:08 GMT -8
Okay- so here goes-
I actually don't know enough about this latest episode to comment directly on it, but here's my general take on Israel.
In general, I am pro-Israel, but not to the extent that some Christians are where the nation of Israel is God's chosen country and they can do no wrong and we are going to bring down curses on ourselves if we don't support them unquestioningly.
I think Israel has a right to be recognized as a country and has a right to defend itself. I also think it is an important ally of the United States in a very strategic and vulnerable part of the world.
That said, I support a two-state solution and I also do not think Israel has been completely innocent in it's treatment of Palestinians. I have heard that the state of Israel has not treated our brother and sister Palestinian Christians well, which concerns me greatly.
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Post by robin on Jun 7, 2010 10:28:12 GMT -8
I to am concerned about of fellow Christians, but I don't think it is fair to expect Israel to set it's foreign policy based on how many Christians are with the boarders of its enemies. The Israeli government is charged with protecting it's own citizens first. Unless we can determine for certain that Israel is intending to harm Christians, I don't think it is fair to lay this charge at their feet (Christian suffering's) . Many noble wars have been fought where Christians have died unintentionally, but the wars were noble all the same. The way I see it is that Christians within Palestine need to be looking to their own government to stop the bloodshed. That is where they can be most effective.
Also what about the Christians in Israel? The missiles that are launched from Gaza on a regular bases don't discriminate between Jews and Christians. Sadly, I expect that many Christians, Jews, and Muslims will die before this tragedy is resolved.
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Post by Josh on Jun 7, 2010 15:48:09 GMT -8
The source I was referring to was Hank Hanegraaf's book The Apocalypse Code, where he outlines questionable things Israel has done toward it's own Muslim and Christian civillians. I'll pick it up from the church library and try and refresh myself on the details.
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Post by robin on Jun 8, 2010 7:10:27 GMT -8
The source I was referring to was Hank Hanegraaf's book The Apocalypse Code, where he outlines questionable things Israel has done toward it's own Muslim and Christian civillians. I'll pick it up from the church library and try and refresh myself on the details. I would be interested to find out what he is referring to. I will do some research myself. |
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Post by robin on Jun 8, 2010 9:17:54 GMT -8
I've been doing a little searching on the Internet for information regarding any abuses by the Israeli government toward Christians and have found nothing. However, there is and abundance of information about Muslim countries abusing christian.
I have heard that the Israeli government looks down on Christian proselytizing of Jews, but I not even certain about that.
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Post by Josh on Jun 20, 2010 17:38:52 GMT -8
OK, Robin. I picked up the book today.
Here are some examples Hannegraaff cites:
1) Palestinians today are the largest displaced people group in the world. Israeli historians talk about the mass and planned expulsion of the Palestinians. At least four hundred Palestinian villages have been destroyed and several massacres have occurred since the 1940's in an attempt to motivate the Arab popluation to flee.
2) From the get-go in 1948, Joseph Weitz, director of the Jewish National Land Fund, was claiming, "If the Arabs leave the country, it will be broad and wide open for us. If the Arabs stay, the country will remain narrow and miserable. The only solution is Israel without Arabs. There is no room for compromise on this point". Israel's first prime minister, David Ben Gurion said, "We will expel the Arabs and take their place"
3) Brother Andrew (famous Christian missionary) recounts a well-known 1948 Israeli massacre of the village of Deir Yassin where 250 men, women, children, and babies were brutally slaughtered by the Israeli paramilitary. The Israelis then simply took over their homes.
Hanegraaff quotes author Gary Burge's heart wrenching story of Na'im Stifan Ateek, an 11 year old Palestinian Christian, whose village was taken over by Israeli soldiers in 1948. The men of the village were rounded up and told if they didn't leave they would all be killed. The Muslims were shipped off to Jordan, the Christians were loaded on buses and deposited on the outskirts of Nazareth as homeless refugees. Israel turned their old church into a storehouse. They attempted to visit their home later only to meet a new Israeli occupant who told them, "This is not your house. It is ours"
4) Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said, "Our claim to this land is based on the greatest and most incontrovertable document in creation-- the Holy Bible"
This is all found in the Introduction to The Apocalypse Code (with copious footnotes)
Anyway, these are some reasons we must never blindly support Israel. They do not have God's blessing as a nation any more than any other nation. The people of God are those who worship Him in spirit and truth (John 4:23)- be they Jew or Gentile.
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Post by robin on Jun 21, 2010 8:42:51 GMT -8
I don't see any evidence that this is the case today. The population of Arabs living in Israel is out pacing the Jewish population in regards to growth. Not to mention that Israel has sacrificed a significant amount in order to try and live in peace with it's neighbors, and their efforts have been met with violence.
Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon could all provide land for the Palestinians just as Israel has, but instead the Palestinian people are being used by their Arab brothers to try and destroy the Jewish nation.
Again, where is the evidence that this is the current policy of Israel?
And since then Israel has given up land (Gaza) and evacuated it's own people and handed over their home to the Palestinians in order to try and secure peace. This happened in 2005!
So what? Although I don't agree with him, it is not an illogical belief.
There are great reason to not blindly support any nation, including our own. However, when I consider all that Israel has dealt with and is facing in the future, it is my belief that they deserve our support. Without it Israel could very well be facing another Holocaust. It breaks my heart to even consider the possibility the the world will once again stand by as the Jews are slaughtered. This is a very real possibility, and not nearly enough is being done to stop it.
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Post by Josh on Jun 21, 2010 12:59:00 GMT -8
It was Palestinian land before it was the Jews. Why should they have to move anyway?
Remember, in general I support Israel as well. But not unconditionally or wholeheartedly, as a brief review of their history warrants.
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Post by robin on Jun 21, 2010 13:37:09 GMT -8
The land has been lived in by both Jew and Arabs for centuries, and during that time it has been ruled over by a variety of empires including the Roman, and Ottoman empires. Not to mention that ancient geographic Palestine does include parts of Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.
But what does that matter? The land now belongs to Israel, and they could claim more land if they chose to, due to the fact that they captured a significant amount of land over the years in military disputes with it's neighbors. If the Arab countries around Israel were willing, peace could be achieved. Sadly I don't believe that the Palestinians are interested in peace, nor are the countries that falsely claim to be worried about the plight of the Palestinians. Nothing short of Israel's total destruction will do.
Also I don't see anyone asking the Palestinians to move away. I do however here some say that the Jews should move back home, like Helen Thomas. You don't agree with her do you?
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Post by Kirby on Jun 21, 2010 14:32:58 GMT -8
No one is asking, they are forcing. Then bulldozing houses and centuries-old olive orchards. Then disallowing Palestians to work. Then stealing crops. If someone did this to you and your family, would you not respond with violence? Whether or not Israel has the "legal" right to the land via military conquest is of little importance to me, it is the gross violation of human rights that Israel is inflicting on Palestinians. This has little to do with whether or not Israel should be a nation, or even be there at all, but rather that Israel should continue to expand its "settlements" displacing millions of Palestinians. THAT is what needs to stop IMO. There is not an easy answer here, but I agree with Josh. We should not be blindly supporting Israel. There are horrible atrocities stemming from BOTH sides of the conflict here. We should support peace. Meanwhile, the US has pledged $60 million to assist UNRWA with Palestianian refugees. (that works out to just under $13 to each refugee.) www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/18/clinton.palestinian.refugees/index.html |
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Post by robin on Jun 21, 2010 16:14:54 GMT -8
As I stated above, which neither you or Josh responded to, Israel has been giving land in order to try and secure peace (2005). The removal of homes that has occurred has been done in the interest of self defense. Israel must be able to protect it's citizens from rockets being launched from Palestinian territories. There must be a buffer zone between Israel and those who seek to destroy them. I suspect that if it were any other country in the world that had it's neighbors launching rockets into it's cities, all out war would be declared.
The Palestinians have to take responsibility for their own sufferings. It is they who have elected Hamas (Terrorists) to govern them. The Palestinians must chose peace, without demanding the extermination of Israel.
Even Bill Clinton stated in frustration that the PLO had little interest in peace, and it became evident when Israel offered everything that Arafat demanded in 1995, yet he still declined a peace deal.
We are all in agreement here, not just you and Josh. It's not fair to imply that those who hold a different view than your on the situation are "blindly supporting".
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Post by Kirby on Jun 21, 2010 16:41:18 GMT -8
True. That was not my intent. Sorry.
Forced relocation never led to peace, and it still is a human rights violation. Ask the Natives that live on reservation land.
Sure. But they are using that as an excuse to grab prime land from families that have now been displaced into refugee camps. They are not ALL terrorists. Many, many Palestinians want peace.
I realize that Hamas and the PLO are violent, and would rather have an Israel-free existence. I do not fully support them. However, I think they get a bad rap. As I stated above, I would probably react violently if my family and neighbors homes were destroyed just so others could have their families move in. It is not just and is bullish, frankly. The Palestinians are not as dangerous as Israel makes them out to be.
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Post by Josh on Jun 21, 2010 17:26:26 GMT -8
There are many evangelicals who do blindly and uniquivocably support Israel- and that's a big problem.
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