John 3

[Josh]

Post your comments/ questions on John chapter 3 as replies here.

[Josh]

I like that Jesus is the kind of person who has powerful conversations with all sorts of people- rich, poor, sinner, religious leader (as in this case). He didn't write off any group of people-- even the Pharisees, who comprised his most violent oppostion.

Blomberg on the historicity of Nicodemus:

"We cannot unequivically equate Nicodemus with any character known to us from independent Jewish sources, but there are two men by that name who appear, respectively, in Josephus and the Babylonian Talmud. The first was alive in 64 BC; the latter was a wealthy man in Jerusalem during the war with Rome (late 60's AD). Both were part of the Gurion family, in which only a handful of 'first' names reappear over the generations. Bauckham demonstrates how the portrait of Nicodemus in the Fourth Gospel corresponds to what we know of this family- part of the Jewish ruling elite, Pharisees, teachers of the Law and extremely rich-- and suggests Nicodemus may have been the uncle of Naqdimon ben Gurion of the rabbinic literature. There is thus no credible reason for doubting the historicity of verse 1"

Also- he notes that there are rabbinic traditions that speak of one of Jesus' followers known as "Nakkai"- a Hebrew equivalent to Nicodemus.

[nathaniel]

Perfect, I was going to ask about Nicodemus.

It appears that Jesus has been performing other miraculous signs since the wedding, and that, according to the NIV commentary on 3:2) his ministry has grow to the point he has crowds surrounding him during the day. I'm curious how much time has pass since the wedding and if some of the miracles that Nicodemus is referring to, are ones recorded in the other gospels?

Jesus seems surprised by Nicodemus' lack of knowledge, saying, in 3:7, "You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again,'" and in 3:10, "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?" Had the Jews yet developed a doctrine of the Spirit or of being born again?

I really like the Greek for born again, "born from above." It has a nice ring to it.

[Josh]

Interesting you should ask that about a developing doctrine about 'being born again'. There is some precedent in both the OT (themes of 'birth from God') and in the discussions of the rabbis since then (primarily about becoming like a little child to see God's truth- similar to Jesus' teaching about the same thing).

It's as if Jesus is expanding on earlier thoughts and although some of what He is saying is novel, there's the sense that Jesus is saying that Nicodemus should be able to follow along better if he has been studying his Old Testament and the rabbis.

[Josh]

Verse 29:

The one who has the bride is the bridegroom.(B) The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him,(C) rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.

I don't think I ever noticed this verse before. It's a great way to see John: the Church is the bride, Jesus the Bridegroom, and John is the Best Man at the wedding.

The best man is a link between the groom's past and future. John is a link between the OT and the NT, the last of the prophets and the first of the saints in a way.

This fits well with what it says of him in Matthew 11:11 (and in Luke):

I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

[Josh]

As a sidenote which may be of interest to those who wonder about the advanced Christology so early in John, some scholars see verses 16 through 21 (at the end of Jesus' speech) and 31 through 36 (at the end of John's speech) as explanatory comments made by John himself. There being no quotation marks in ancient Greek, this is a very real posibility- or even if John intended these passages to be seen as being spoken by Jesus and John, they aren't necessarily to be seen as verbatim quotations. In ancient writings, it was common to blend or paraphrase things historical persons said as various times and places together into speeches that would have been accurately representative of a person's beliefs or teachings.

In these two cases I belive John is unpacking or pre-explaining the mission of Christ for his readers (telling them the eventual significance of the events he's reporting), not dictating Jesus and John's words verbatim. The Synoptics make it pretty clear that these kind of beliefs were only slowly revealed to the disciples, not delivered by expository essay right off the bat.

[b]

That is some good context for the "advanced christology", and explains speech that could sound less than spontaneous.


It would be natural for an eye witness of several events to empasize the most important truths and core meaning to make sure it would be understood

[b]

I have always loved the phrase from John the B. " He must become greater, I must become less." I think this pretty much sums up the whole discipleship/ spiritual growth process.

It is interesting to see John's humility in his ministry as well. I think there is a very natural tendency to "guard" our ministries and areas of service, not always aware of where they fit into God's ultimate plans. Especially when we experience what would be perceived as success in ministry. It is so tempting to try to repeat what has worked before hoping it will continue to have a good outcome, verses risking a new direction. I would guess that John's disciples were watching him closely to see how he would respond to this new guy Jesus.

Got to go, Wide Angle is on

[Josh]

That's heavy, Bri. Very important thought- especially for Churches. Reminds me of some things Marcus and Jess and I were talking about last night.

[b]

In the interest of proper credit, the posting yesterday was written by Sarah (she did not realize I was still logged on to our computer when she typed it)

[b]

To be even more specific, the first posting was me 3:46,

the 7:58 one was Sarah Peaches. And Wide Angle on PBS is an exceptionally informative show. Last nights was on Romania.

[Josh]

LOL. So, is this a case of "behind every good man is a great woman" -- how's that go?

[sarah]

gee I once heard it said,

" Behind every great man, is a very surprised woman"

Just kiddin! All in great fun.......