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John 15
Mar 18, 2007 19:57:17 GMT -8
Post by michelle on Mar 18, 2007 19:57:17 GMT -8
"Servants don't know what their master is doing, and so I don't speak to you as my servants. I speak to you as my friends, and I have told you everything that my Father has told me." John 15:15 (CEV)
This verse really struck a chord with me tonight when I read it. It really drove home that our relationship with Jesus is not meant to be primarily a master/servant relationship. He offers Himself to us as a friend. Through the Bible, we get amazing insight into God so that we can become friends with Him. For me, I wouldn't necessarily need to know much about God's character to abide by His rules, but it's impossible to have an intimate friendship with someone that you know nothing about. But we can have a friendship with Him because He allows us to know about Him by reading the Bible. I just think that is really cool!
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John 15
Mar 19, 2007 19:56:09 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Mar 19, 2007 19:56:09 GMT -8
You got me doing a mini-study of the terms "servants" and "friends" in the Gospels. It's interesting how often both terms are used to describe the followers of God (I suppose that's true in the OT as well).
On the servants side, this verse stood out to me as a counter-weight to the idea of John 15:5:
Luke 17: 7"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' "
But, it's not like Luke is oblivious to the 'friend' concept either. He has Jesus referring to the disciples as friends.
I suppose one could see these passages as contradictory, but I take it something like this:
Just like we had to understand the law to understand grace, we need to understand our unworthiness before we understand the intimate friendship that Christ offers us. Also, we need to understand dutiful obedience before we grasp that God wants us to be involved actively in His decisions.
So, Michelle, since we've got the duty concept down (well, at least the idea of it), I guess we're ripe for the friendship of God, huh?
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John 15
Mar 20, 2007 9:45:33 GMT -8
Post by michelle on Mar 20, 2007 9:45:33 GMT -8
True, true! The duty part feels so easy to me. Why does the friendship part feel so difficult?
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John 15
Oct 2, 2007 15:12:32 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Oct 2, 2007 15:12:32 GMT -8
6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Just one of those verses that should give us pause and cause us to be wary of drawing our theological boxes too concretely. We should see this as a serious warning. For someone to not remain in Christ implies being in Christ to begin with. This reminds me of Paul's exhortation to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
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John 15
Oct 5, 2007 14:18:55 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Oct 5, 2007 14:18:55 GMT -8
21They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me. 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. 23He who hates me hates my Father as well. 24If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'
Interestingly [or perhaps ominously] this phrase from the Psalms is cited in the Talmud as the reason that God destroyed the Temple in 70 AD. It's just the 'me' that Jews and Christians see differently; Jews see it as the Father, Christians as the Son representing the Father.
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John 15
Oct 5, 2007 14:39:15 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Oct 5, 2007 14:39:15 GMT -8
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener....
5"I am the vine; you are the branches...
Jesus talks a lot about vines in the transition from the Last Supper to the Garden of Gethsemene. As a note of historical realism from Blomberg, there were many "vinyards in the vicinity of the Temple, which the little troupe would have passed en route to Gethsemene."
I love thinking of Jesus as drawing analogies from things around Him as He's speaking. I mean, think about it: He made all things- He made those vines, He knew in His omniscience they were there, He calls upon His creation to speak to His loved ones as He walks upon the road to His willful death.
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John 15
Apr 10, 2012 20:23:37 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Apr 10, 2012 20:23:37 GMT -8
18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.' 26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
When Jesus says they in verse 24, who is he referring to exactly, and is he talking about sin in general or a particular sin? What do you think?
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shirley
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John 15
Jul 23, 2012 19:09:52 GMT -8
Post by shirley on Jul 23, 2012 19:09:52 GMT -8
So I was thinking about the phrase "In the world, not of the world." and my search of verses that reflected this thought led me primarily to John 15:19(quoted above). In my experience people take this phrase as gospel and use it to isolate themselves from society in different measures. But I'm not sure that that's what this verse is suggesting. Thoughts? When Jesus says they in verse 24, who is he referring to exactly, and is he talking about sin in general or a particular sin? What do you think? Josh - I think he is talking about everyone who doesn't repent, and I think it is sin in general. I feel vs. 22-24 were the answers I was looking for on another thread where I was asking doesn't God have the same standard for everyone, saved or not.
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John 15
Jul 24, 2012 4:13:42 GMT -8
Post by lesbrewer on Jul 24, 2012 4:13:42 GMT -8
As you know there are so many temptations in the world that stear people away from Christ Jesus once we are saved. False religions, things that temp us like porn and other such things like the occult. When we turn our our to the Lord we must walk away from these things. The bible tells us that the world will know us by our fruits and if we can't show the world there is a difference between those that are saved and an saved then Jesus can't be living in us. You see, as Christians we are to Christ like. We can't have it both ways, we are either for him or against him, Amen. We do have to be careful how we spend our lives as Christians because we too will have to give an account of what we have done with our time since being saved...... I don't believe either that he is asking everyone on become "Train Spotters" either........
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John 15
Jul 24, 2012 9:13:19 GMT -8
Post by christopher on Jul 24, 2012 9:13:19 GMT -8
It's also possible that the phrase is derived from Jesus prayer:
But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. (John 17:13-15 NKJV)
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shirley
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John 15
Jul 24, 2012 15:35:52 GMT -8
Post by shirley on Jul 24, 2012 15:35:52 GMT -8
That's a good one too Chris. Also referenced on one website was John 8:23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.(NIV) and Romans 12:2a Do not conform to the pattern of this world (NIV) The author of the article was saying that these three verses combined come to this conclusion. Maybe I should just be in a different spot on the forum asking what people think about that phrase...
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John 15
Jul 25, 2012 9:26:37 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Jul 25, 2012 9:26:37 GMT -8
Josh - I think he is talking about everyone who doesn't repent, and I think it is sin in general. the reason i'm not sure about that is that not everyone has been granted the miracles he's referring to; miracles which he seems to be saying hold his generation of Jews especially accountable.
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John 15
Jul 25, 2012 9:35:41 GMT -8
Post by Josh on Jul 25, 2012 9:35:41 GMT -8
So I was thinking about the phrase "In the world, not of the world." and my search of verses that reflected this thought led me primarily to John 15:19(quoted above). In my experience people take this phrase as gospel and use it to isolate themselves from society in different measures. But I'm not sure that that's what this verse is suggesting. Thoughts? I think you're right. We have to look at Jesus' own example of how to be "in the world but not of it". To Scripture the "world" does not mean the physical world, but the spiritual, societal, cultural, and political aspects of the world opposed to God. Jesus repudiates this while all the while living in and enjoying very much the physical world and human relationships (hanging out at wedding, drinking wine, chilling with prostitutes and tax collectors, etc) I think Paul gives us his own take on this when he says: 1 Cor. 5:9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." Here, Paul clearly expects that Christians will be associating with unbelievers who engage in all kinds of sins. How else would we reach a hurting world with the gospel? It's the hypocritical Christians we are to avoid.
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shirley
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Posts: 114
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John 15
Jul 25, 2012 18:05:43 GMT -8
Post by shirley on Jul 25, 2012 18:05:43 GMT -8
To Scripture the "world" does not mean the physical world, but the spiritual, societal, cultural, and political aspects of the world opposed to God. Jesus repudiates this while all the while living in and enjoying very much the physical world and human relationships (hanging out at wedding, drinking wine, chilling with prostitutes and tax collectors, etc). Agreed. Especially key for me in this statement is "opposed to God". Just because something isn't stamped with a fish doesn't mean it's opposed to God. There are a lot of things in "the world" that can enrich our Christian lives and help us share the gospel with others. the reason i'm not sure about that is that not everyone has been granted the miracles he's referring to; miracles which he seems to be saying hold his generation of Jews especially accountable. Hmmm...I see what you mean. Maybe we need some miracles? (Francis MacNutt would say so. )
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John 15
Jul 26, 2012 2:22:08 GMT -8
Post by lesbrewer on Jul 26, 2012 2:22:08 GMT -8
So I was thinking about the phrase "In the world, not of the world." and my search of verses that reflected this thought led me primarily to John 15:19(quoted above). In my experience people take this phrase as gospel and use it to isolate themselves from society in different measures. But I'm not sure that that's what this verse is suggesting. Thoughts? I think you're right. We have to look at Jesus' own example of how to be "in the world but not of it". To Scripture the "world" does not mean the physical world, but the spiritual, societal, cultural, and political aspects of the world opposed to God. Jesus repudiates this while all the while living in and enjoying very much the physical world and human relationships (hanging out at wedding, drinking wine, chilling with prostitutes and tax collectors, etc) I think Paul gives us his own take on this when he says: 1 Cor. 5:9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." Here, Paul clearly expects that Christians will be associating with unbelievers who engage in all kinds of sins. How else would we reach a hurting world with the gospel? It's the hypocritical Christians we are to avoid. That's right Josh. We need to remember at all times here that God hates Sin, not the sinner. We need to be able to reach out to the unsaved with love towards them. I love the story of the tax collector, Zacchaeus the tax collector and where Jesus even went into his house. The other situation is where you have the prostitute woman where all the people who believed they were high figured people and they wanted to stone this lady. After questioning Jesus on what should happen to her, he said "He with out sin cast the first stone" Today there are a lot of Christians who love to be the judge towards the unsaved & towards each other sometimes; the bible is very clear towards us with the fact it says - "Judge not for you too will be judged under the same judgment" I don't know how many Christians here who actually believe this, but I truly believe we are living in the last days before the time of the tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ. In fact there is no prophecies left to take place for this to actually happen with the tribulation...... and the rapture of the church, so we as Christians do need to pull are socks up and reach out to all who need to hear the Gospel of Jesus and help them to understand on what it is they need to be saved from.
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Post by Josh on Aug 3, 2012 7:36:02 GMT -8
Les, I can see we have some differences in our views on revelation et al. Would love to discuss further on our eschatology sub-forum, since that topic is always a complicated one.
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