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Post by michelle on Feb 7, 2007 22:05:57 GMT -8
11/05:
"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not now - God knows. And I know that this man - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows - was caught up to paradise." v 2-4
It's obvious to me that this is where the Mormons get their idea of the 3 heavens, which seems understandable. What does this mean "caught up to the third heaven"?
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Post by Josh on Feb 7, 2007 22:39:23 GMT -8
11/05:
There are a couple schools of thought here: one is that the OT seems to imply 3 levels of 'heaven': the sky, space, and the abode of God.
Another is the fact that several books written between the OT and NT mention different 'spheres of heaven': some 5,7, and even 10 (1 Enoch, of course). So, Paul could be referring in some vague way to a notion like this.
But, he does clarify what he means when he says he went to Paradise. Basically, this was the adobe of God, where Jesus now was seated, where the thief on the cross was promised to go: the realm of God and the righteous dead.
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Post by Josh on Feb 7, 2007 22:39:57 GMT -8
11/05:
Here are some possible candidate's for Paul's thorn in the flesh, culled from various commentators in the history of the Church:
Pain in the head or ear Opponents (humans or demons) Sexual Temptation An eye disease (see Galatians 4:13-15) Malaria Epilepsy Heartbreak over the Jewish rejection of the Gospel Speech Impediment
We can say that whatever it was, it was sent from satan, allowed by God (hmmm, sounds like the book of Job), and caused Paul weakness.
I think John Chrysostom's idea that it was some kind of opponents makes the most sense. See Num. 33:55, Judges 2:3; compare Ezek 2:6; 28:24; Micah 7:4; and Josh 23:13)
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Post by Josh on Feb 7, 2007 22:40:36 GMT -8
11/05:
Hey Michelle,
I know you've said chronology with the bible can be kinda confusing. Well, the early years of Paul are told about in Galatians, 2 Corinthians, and Acts, but need to be synthesized to get the whole story. This is how we can figure out when this "revelation of the 3rd heaven" took place. Anyway, I think Paul's early years are fascinating and mysterious. Here's a synthesized chronological sequence of Paul's early Christian years from Scripture that I put together.:
PAUL’S EARLY CHRISTIAN YEARS: A CHRONOLOGY FROM HIS CONVERSION UP TO HIS FIRST MISSIONARY JOURNEY (Roughly AD 33-46)
Acts 9:1-19 1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” 5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” 7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything. 10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!” “Yes, Lord,” he answered. 11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.” 13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.” 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” 17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.
Galatians 1:15-17 15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
Acts 9:19-25 19 Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” 22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Christ. 23 After many days had gone by, the Jews conspired to kill him, 24 but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him. 25 But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a basket through an opening in the wall.
THE FOLLOWING TWO PASSAGES ARE ABOUT THE SAME EVENT. APPARENTLY ONLY PETER AND JAMES WERE IN JERUSALEM AT THIS TIME.
Galatians 1:18-20,22-24 18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. 22 I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they praised God because of me.
Acts 9:26-30 26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. 28 So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. 29 He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him. 30 When the brothers learned of this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.
IT WAS PROBABLY WHILE HE WAS IN TARSUS (HIS SO-CALLED SILENT YEARS BETWEEN ABOUT 37 AD TO 45 AD) THAT HE WAS ‘CAUGHT UP TO THE THIRD HEAVEN’:
2 Corinthians 12:1-5 1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. Galatians 1:21 21 Later I went to Syria and Cilicia.
Acts 11:25-26 25 Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26 and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
THIS LEADS US TO PAUL’S FIRST MISSIONARY JOURNEY (ACTS 13:1-3)
If anyone's interested in these fascinating early years of Paul's life, there is a great biographical book (a well researched historical novel) titled the Life of Paul by John Pollock that is just fascinating and inspirational, which I would be more than happy to loan out at any time.
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Post by michelle on Feb 7, 2007 22:41:48 GMT -8
11/05:
Wow, Josh. Thanks so much!! I have saved and I look forward to really getting into it when I have more time.
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Post by Josh on Feb 7, 2007 22:42:09 GMT -8
11/05:
Paul's notion of weakness being turned into strength is beautiful and so brilliant. I wonder if anyone else in the ancient world had stumbled on to a similar idea-- or if this is a Pauline original straight from God
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