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Post by michelle on Feb 5, 2007 20:46:20 GMT -8
11/05:
I wish I could tattoo all of Romans 12 on my arm. It is short, but so full of sweet nuggets to chew on. I love the guidelines that Paul gives to Christians. As far as how to act/be in the world, I think this sums it up.
I think one of my favorite verses in this chapter is verse 11, "Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord." I wish it were that easy...
It seems as though people would use verses 17-21 as arguements against capital punishment. Has anybody heard/used this for that argument??
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Post by sarah on Feb 5, 2007 21:47:12 GMT -8
11/05:
I have heard vs 17 quoted in relation to capital punishment. What do you think about Paul's use of the word grace in vs 6? It also looks to me like prophesy is the only gift listed with a condition attached, where the other gifts have descriptions of how they are to be acted upon.
I love vs18 "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everybody." and 21 "Do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good"
I have committed those two to memory for quick recall! I think I will work on vs12 as well! "Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
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Post by Josh on Feb 5, 2007 21:47:57 GMT -8
11/05:
What exactly does verse 6 mean by "according to the standard of faith" (I only have the Christian Standard Bible version with me right now) as a qualifier for prophecy. This kinda sounds like that other verse that says "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets", yet another difficult verse to understand.
Anyone?
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Post by michelle on Feb 5, 2007 21:53:35 GMT -8
11/05:
Both of my versions (NIV and NKJV) say "in proportion to his/our faith."
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Post by Josh on Feb 5, 2007 21:54:14 GMT -8
11/05:
On the subject of capital punishment, I think this is a perfect example of the importance of context. Remember that the recipients of this book have very little power in society. Their level of participation in the Roman political structure is nominal at best. Paul is giving them advice primarily for their personal lives and how they are to conduct themselves as underdogs in the Roman world. I'm not saying these verses don't have some application to politicians as well, but I think it becomes clear in Romans 13 that there is a different standard and expectation for government officials than there is for believers in their personal practice of their faith.
Paul goes on to say in chapter 13:1-6 that the government "does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong." Paul is not just saying that governments do kill people (just stating a fact), but is saying that God has given them the right to take life in the prevention of evil.
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Post by michelle on Feb 5, 2007 21:54:55 GMT -8
11/05:
Is he saying that ALL governing authorities are what God has established?? Because I think you could make a strong case for God not being a very nice guy (see Sadaam Hussein, Hitler, etc.) if that is the case. Or is this something that needs to stay in context to Paul speaking of the Roman government?
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Post by Josh on Feb 5, 2007 21:55:32 GMT -8
11/05:
Wow, you're quick. I stepped away on my break and then thought of a big caveat, and came back and you're right on it! Heheh
Well, the caveat is that Paul is saying the government has been given this power for good (ie, to restrain evil), so this implies that if the government then uses that power for evil (ie, punishing the innocent), then it is not acting as God's agent. And we just have to look at the Prophets to see God's opinion of the misuse of government power- He hates it. So, just because government have been given the 'power of the sword' doesn't mean it's a blank check.
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Post by Josh on Feb 5, 2007 21:56:16 GMT -8
11/05:
The early Church father Origen backs this up in a quote from circa 185 AD (keeping in mind the early church frequently had to deal with persecuting Roman emperors):
"What does Paul mean when he ways there is no authority except from God? Is an authority which persecutes the children of God, which attacks the faith and which undermines our religion, from God? We shall answer this briefly. Nobody will deny that our sense-- sight, sound, and thought-- are given to us by God. But although we get them from God, what we do with them is up to us... God will judge us righteously for having abused what he gave us to use for good. Likewise, God's judgment against the authorities will be just, if they have used the powers they have received according to their own ungodliness and not according to the laws of God."
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Post by Josh on Feb 5, 2007 21:57:30 GMT -8
11/05:
However (see prior), the solution to persecuting emperors in the early church was never revolution. Apollinaris of Laodicea (c.350 AD) and others make the case that this should be condemned. What do we say about the American Revolution in light of that?
Are there situations that are even worse than Emperial Rome's persecution in which armed uprising is justified? I can't imagine anyone arguing that things were anywhere near as bad for the American colonists as they were for the early Christians under Rome.
Now, I think a case could be made for uprising being justified in a situation like Nazi Germany, which was arguably worse than emperial Rome. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a conscientious Christian, came to the conclusion that joining a conspiracy to kill Hitler was the only moral thing to do.
But, does the American Revolution seem justified by Scripture or the early fathers?
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Post by Josh on Feb 5, 2007 21:58:00 GMT -8
11/05:
Another thing to note is that Paul himself was executed by the very authority that he is defending in Chapter 13 and elsewhere. He never says they don't have the right to exectue per se, but he does try and defend himself before Nero-- arguing obstensively that he, at least, should not be executed because it would be an unjust execution.
So the problem with someone like Saddam or Nero is not that they used capital punishment- it's that they used it unjustly.
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Post by sarah on Feb 5, 2007 21:58:56 GMT -8
11/05:
On to Romans 13:
Ahhh the chapter that makes me feel guilty when I don't like the government.....
I do like the statement "let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another" and later "love is the fulfillment of the law"
So question, is financial debt ungodly? After all it would certainly count as a debt of revenue!
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Post by michelle on Feb 5, 2007 21:59:58 GMT -8
11/05:
That is a tough question, especially when you consider that owing on a mortgage or a student loan is debt. To me the important part is "let no debt remain OUTSTANDING." I interpret that (and I could be wrong) as don't default on your debt. Don't let your debt get so out of hand that you do not have the means to pay it back. If you owe, pay it. If you look at the verse before that I think it gives a little more clarification. "Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." God asks that we give/return what is owed whatever that may be. Granted I may interpret it this way because I want to because that is the only way to explain away my mortgage payment and student loans. : ) Some other verses that deal with this issue are Psalm 37:21 and Matthew 5:42.
"The wicked borrow and do not repay, but the righteous give generously." Psalm 37:21
"Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." Matthew 5:42. These words come directly from Jesus. If we are asked to let someone borrow, then it seems understood that God understands that there may be a need to borrow.
Part of me wonders if you get so far into debt that you cannot pay it back if God sees that as stealing and that may be the point that it becomes ungodly.
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Post by michelle on Apr 19, 2007 22:18:51 GMT -8
Ah, the last verse of chapter 13..."But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires." (ESV) I got this image of getting dressed in the morning and saying to myself, "I am clothing myself in the Lord Jesus Christ". I may have to try that for a week to see if it impacts the way I carry myself for Christ.
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Post by sarah on Apr 20, 2007 9:52:02 GMT -8
Great idea Michelle! Your comments reminded me of the concept of being clothed in righteousness, which inspired me to look up a few old favorites. Thought you might enjoy them as well! God is constantly reframing my concept of what it means to be placed in Christ and to remain in him. Psalm 132:9 May your priests be clothed with righteousness;may your saints sing for joy 1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you might declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his glorious light. Isaiah 61:10 (knew I had to throw some Isaiah in here! ) I delight greatly in the Lord; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with the garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness Ephesians 4:22-24 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. Colossians 3:9-10 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practice sand have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator
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