|
Post by michelle on Feb 5, 2007 20:42:12 GMT -8
11/05:
There are really two things that stick out about this chapter. The first is verse 11 and the second is commentary I read on verses 26-27.
On Sundays we've been talking a lot about what it means to be a church and one of the common themes is that as a church body we need to encourage one another. In Romans 1:11, Paul writes, "For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established - that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you & me." This verse really speaks to me (especially the last part) as we explore each other as Christians and what it means to be meeting on a weekly basis. It seems like the simple act of meeting and sharing our spiritual gifts with each other (whatever they may be) we are encouraging to each other. And I think Paul emphasizes that part of being established is encouraging each other. I know that I want to put this at the top of my priority list of things to do for fellow believers.
Verses 26-27 speak on homosexuality. But what I want to throw out there is the commentary that my Bible has on it that really disturbs me. The commentary says "Homosexuality is a sin (Lev. 18:22). In this passage, the point is not that homosexuality is a sin that should be punished. Rather homosexuality itself is the punishment." Maybe I'm misreading this, but if God were to punish us, would He really punish us by causing to sin? Isn't this like saying to an alcoholic, "drinking is a sin, so your punishment is that you are going to drink too much?" How is anyone supposed to break out of the cycle of sin if their punishment is that sin?? Can anyone shed a different light on this?
|
|
|
Post by nathaniel on Feb 5, 2007 21:27:21 GMT -8
11/05:
part 1: i like your thoughts on verse 11. in addition it seems like he doesn't really know what spiritual gift he'll be imparting to them (maybe cause he has so many), just that the simple fact of sharing their mutual faith will be encouraging. he makes encouragement seem like the end result rather than the action.
part 2: after reading that ch. 1, i went back to verses 26-27 and then back tracked, and here's what i got from it. i understood it better when taking verses 18-32 as a whole section. it starts off with God's wrath against the godlessness and wickedness of men who know him (through creation, etc.), but deny him glory, worship, etc. So their first and most major blunder was a denial of God, and intern a worship of created things. At this point God gives them over to the "sinful desires of their heart" (which may be part of God's grace and wrath wrapped in one, because, as we know, God won't force us to love him) and those sinful desires, whatever they may be have consequences. and while one sin may consequently lead to more, it doesn't mean God is causing them to sin as punishment.
I think my thoughts may have gotten jumbled there. Basically what i'm trying to say is in each section (between 18-32) when it talks about God giving them over to such-and-such, it's precluded by saying that they knew God but chose to deny him. so they had already decided to turn from God, God just allowed them to actualize their desires. It seems like a very logical snowball effect. Deny God...follow your own desires...your own desires lead to sin...sin has consequences. and it's not only homosexuality he gave them over to, that's just a specific example, just as murder, greed, and slander are specific examples of a "depraved mind" in verses 29-32.
hopefully i broke that down how i wanted. and hopefully it helps. any thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Feb 5, 2007 21:28:49 GMT -8
11/05:
Keep in mind that Paul here is describing the digression of ancient societies- especially Rome. Starting with idolatry, their society gradually unravels into progressively outlandish sins. Had he lived about 100 years later he probably would have added the lust for violence in the Roman arena to the end of the list. These excesses have, arguably, always marked the decline of societies- even today in some regard.
|
|
|
Post by sarah on Feb 5, 2007 21:30:12 GMT -8
11/05:
Hey M, I guess that I think of it like this. Think of the deepest you ever got wrapped into sin, your darkest most distant from truth moment. Now think about the process that led to that moment. I know for myself it wasn't like I went from fully comited to Christ to that dark space in one giant step. It was a series of steps that led me further from truth and deaper into lies. It started with concious decisions to do little things that I knew were wrong, I got used to that (hardened) and then took another step in the wrong direction. By the time I was making the "big" sin decisions, that voice inside that says "this isn't right" was nearly silent and I only heard it is quiet moments when I dared to listen. I think the vs 25 is important in the context of your question. "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie." It implies an active process, and I think that once you are deep into the lies, it takes an active "return policy" to get free from those lies. All sin has a cascading effect that will pull you further and further from the truth. I think is this passage, God more let the natural process of sin run it's course. Homosexuality is also not the only depravity mentioned. There is also Greed, gossip, boasting. Things that many Christians consider "softer" sins, but in the context they are all a part of the same effect.
|
|
|
Post by jeremy on Feb 5, 2007 21:30:51 GMT -8
11/05:
I read it like this: homsexuality has physical consequences--consequences put there by God so we could hopefully see them and realize their awfulness. Maybe it was God's initial plan that men/men relations cause disease. Maybe it's a safeguard, like our nervous system. It's not punishment when we touch a hot stove...it's simply a natural consequence, put there so we don't end up hurting ourselves even worse (to the point we hurt ourselves like lepers do, who have no feeling at all).
I don't think God punishes us by causing us to sin, however i do believe that through our sin God can help us realize our own powerlessness over it. And once we are at that point of admitting that, God can begin to help us.
|
|
|
Post by rose on Feb 5, 2007 21:31:21 GMT -8
11/05:
I agree with Jeremy...it's not a punishment from God, rather it's a direct result of the bondage of their sin. This is an example of God's permissive will - where God "gives them over to" their sinful desires - he neither forces obedience nor determines disobedience. I think the sins they were falling into were directly correlated with the choice to reject God and exchange the truth of God for a lie.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Feb 5, 2007 21:32:23 GMT -8
11/05:
Just a note on Romans 1:8's mention of the "whole world". Keep in mind that when the writers of Scripture use this phrase they mean the "known world" or the "Roman World". Here are other examples: Colossians 1:6, Acts 17:6, 24:5.
This is very important, as I pointed out on the eschatology thread, in understanding what Matthew 24:14 means- i.e., that that verse was already fulfilled in Jesus' generation- at least in a preliminary way.
|
|