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Post by michelle on Mar 9, 2007 18:04:50 GMT -8
I should probably do more (I haven't done any at all) research before I post this, but I guess it's good information for others, so I will just ask.
Regarding the Tower of Babel, are there archaelogical ruins to support it's existence? Also, and I have no frame of reference for this, have there been inquiries or theories about the pyramids being built before the "language was confused"? I don't even know what time period we are talking about here or the locations. It just seemed that nobody really knows how pyramids were built, but in Genesis 11 God is worried about the ancient Babylonians being able to do anything. Or is this story just a "tall tale" about how we have different languages?
Also, when God says ,"Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech" who is He talking to? Is He talking to angels?
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Post by Josh on Mar 9, 2007 18:53:51 GMT -8
Ah, Michelle, you know I eat this stuff up! But don't hesitate to disagree with my pontifications, anyone.
Ok, like the story of the Flood (which has parallels all over the earth), the story of the confusion of languages also has a parallel in ancient Sumerian mythology, in a story called "Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta" 'where the two rival gods, Enki and Enlil end up confusing the tongues of all humankind as collateral damage arising from their argument.' [from Wikipedia]
I think this is contained in a book in the ACF library entitled "Ancient Near East documents" if you're interested in further reading.
As to it's historical factuality, there are two major ways to look at this that I think would be warranted (other than seeing it as purely fictitious):
1) Paleontology tells us that before 20,000 years ago, modern humans (which appear in the fossil record at about 40,000-50,000 years ago on the near end) stayed near the Middle East/ East Africa region. Since cultures all over the world have a flood story, they must have maintained a memory of an event before they were dispersed (ie, before 20,000 BC). For this, and other reasons, the Flood can be dated to about 20,000 years ago. If that's the case, then we might expect the Tower of Babel event to have occurred shortly after that.
Because the most supported view in science right now is that all of humanity came from an original pair (or very small group of original humans), most linguists agree that there was probably an 'original language' (there are other linguistic reasons to believe this as well). It's possible that if this Tower of Babel incident refers to an event around 20,000, then it could have been the first split in languages.
If we take this hypothesis, then probably we shouldn't expect to find the tower (because of it's antiquity). Or, I presume it's possible that it could have been recycled into one of the later ziggurats that I'll discuss next.
The strength of this view is that it allows the story of the Tower of Babel to explain the beginning of the world's first major language groups.
Hypothesis 2 coming...
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Post by Josh on Mar 9, 2007 20:33:17 GMT -8
2) The text doesn't demand that all world-wide languages derive from this event (although one could argue that it implies that). Phrases like "the whole world" or "all over the earth" in the Bible need only refer to the "known world" at the time of the writing. This is demonstrably true in many cases throughout the Bible*. It could be that although mankind begin to spread throughout the world from 20,000 yrs. ago onward, developing their various languages, the people living in the region of Babylon continued with one language, and through their unity were poised to become a dominant, evil civilization based on the flowering of a 'sky god' cult (or something like that- the details are inconsequential) around 3,500 to 2,500 BC., and that the basic plotline of the story took place in this more recent time period. The scattering of the people would then refer not to all humanity but to the Semitic peoples. If this hypothesis is correct, then to identify our "tower" we don't have to look any further than one or two prime Zigurrat candidates location in modern-day Iraq. Zigurrats are basically step-pyramids that most researchers say represented a gate-way to the spiritual realm (the realm of the gods). They can be found in various places in Mesopotamia, and there are some very good candidates for "tower of Babel" locations. The strength of this hypothesis is that it makes sense that a building known as the "Tower of Babel" would still be standing at the time of the writing of Genesis- people would be telling the story of how it came to be unfinished, etc.. Also, it's curious that only ancient Babylon and the Hebrews (who, with Abraham, migrated from Babylon) seem to have a story about this confusion of languages. Why wouldn't other world cultures have this story (like the story of the flood) if it was in their common memory? This seems to lead one to conclude that the "Tower of Babel" event was something that happened to the Semitic people alone. * for examples, just ask.
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Post by Josh on Mar 10, 2007 9:19:17 GMT -8
Some other thoughts:
1) The text doesn't actually demand that (or for that matter explain how) new languages were the result of this incident. It's conceivable that we're talking about either a miraculous event or a sequence of natural events triggered by God that somehow caused the people building this tower to encounter a severe division in their communication. However, this story does seem structure to be an explanatory myth to answer the questions: why are their different languages?
2) Regarding the pyramids, yes, it does depend on whether you are convinced that they are older than traditionally dated. From what I've read/ seen I still stick with the traditional date (which I believe is roughly around 2,000 BC- about the time of Abraham). But, also, we can't really tie the pyramids into the Babel story because the text clearly states where Babel was: on the plain of Shinar, to the east (Mesopotamia).
3) The best evidence in this whole matter, in my opinion, (and the evidence we should start with in interpreting this passage) is the dating of modern human remains around the world. The explosion of human migration around about 20,000 BC is a singular fact that must be taken into consideration. After all those people groups have dispersed, it's too late for the Tower of Babel to have affected their language groups. Either the Tower of Babel incident occurred before they scattered, or it occurred later and just refers to the "confusion" of Semitic languages.
4) When God says "Let us go down" it's probably best interpreted as the similar statement in Genesis 1-2 "Let us make man in our own image". The two dominant views on this are:
a. The writer of Genesis is using the "majestic plural"- a way in literature of ascribing greatness to a god or king
b. A reference to the Trinitarian nature of God I suppose in this passage the reference could be to angels, but in Genesis 1-2 it clearly is not (for the angels had no part in the creation of humans), so I guess I'd stick with options a or b above.
There's another thought on this subject that's a bit too complicated to go into now, but maybe I'll get around to it later (it involves a comparison of ancient Sumerian stories to Biblical ones)
5) It's my persuasion that we shouldn't be too nit-picky with the details in stories such as these. These accounts aren't meant to have the accuracy of a modern historical/ scientific treatese. They are there primarily to teach us about the relationship between man and God in history. I do think they have tremendous historical worth, and can be shown to hold up well under historical research, but I don't necessarily think we should read them with wooden literalism*. We're talking about events that occurred anywhere from 1,000- 20,000 years before the time of writing, handed down via oral tradition. Oral tradition can be amazingly accurate, but still... Of course, we believe these texts are inspired, which can mean a lot of different things (see our forum on inspiration). I certainly think God infused the oral tradition the authors of the Pentateuch received with divine revelation in all sorts of ways (even the historical and scientific), but I still don't think we can use these texts as strictly scientific historical accounts- that's not what they were meant to be.
a note to Michelle: this paragraph is not a response to you at all- it's just my thoughts in general about how to read these super-ancient texts.
*as an example, when God says "Let us go down" we know a non-literal figure of speech is being used, not intended to be viewed as a scientific statement of fact
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