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Post by Josh on Jul 10, 2012 8:30:30 GMT -8
elsewhere atheist jon wrote:
Jon, first off, I'd like to challenge your claim that atheist is a simple concept on two fronts:
Firstly, if by atheism you mean the simple belief that there is no God, then yes, that's simple, but that's not a complete worldview, just a reaction to another on one point of dogma.
If you mean by atheism the broader world view of skepticism, then you're opening the door to a wide world of subtle nuances and differing positions that would also make a greenhorn's head spin.
Now, I agree with you that unresolved inconsistency is bad for any belief system in the long run. But don't confuse inconsistency with mystery.
There is a basic message to Christianity that is apprehendable by the simplest of minds, but there is also a lot of mystery, a lot of subtleties that provide endless opportunities to debate and discuss.
Hmmm, sounds kind of like the theory of general relativity....
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Post by Josh on Jul 10, 2012 17:20:23 GMT -8
Jon, one couldn't even survive a college class, reading a poem, or a night out with the guys for a beer without that ability!
What do you want the bible to be, an instruction manual?
All of the best literature and communication blends the literal and figurative, should we expect less from the Bible?
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Post by stevekimes on Jul 10, 2012 22:58:15 GMT -8
Tsk, tsk. Mind reading is never pretty. Trust me, most Christians, when they misrepresent atheism, they are being sincerely ignorant. It's not deliberate.
And yes, there is no consistency if you look at the trees. One church never can fit with another and the opinions of them all are so mixed. But when you look at the forest, there is a single, simple idea: Jesus is Lord.
That doesn't fit with the atheist credo, but you can't deny it's simple.
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Post by atheist jon on Jul 12, 2012 21:32:48 GMT -8
Well Josh, we can start off by agreeing that atheism is simple then. It is just a lack of belief in a god or gods. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't even assert that there definitely is no god or creator.
It is NOT a worldview of any kind whatsoever. Absolutely 100% correct. It is entirely a reaction to another view. So far so good.
No, by 'atheism' I do NOT include the broader world view of skepticism. Those people I would call...oh...let's say 'rationalists'. Of which I would also consider myself to be. But you can be an atheist and believe in astrology or homeopathy or alien abductions and the suchlike. Topics which I personally would rationally argue against too.
Don't confuse inconsistency with mystery? More like don't confuse inconsistency AND mystery, with confusion and a terrible communications snafu by the Lord! I'm sorry Josh, but as an atheist I can only look at it all and say, "What's going on guys? Come back to me when you have gotten your story straight." All that the debating and discussing of these mysteries seems to achieve is individual interpretations to suit one's individual needs.
Should we expect less from the bible, you ask? Josh, if the bible was divinely inspired and in places the direct and unequivocal word of the almighty, all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe and life, then yes, I would expect it to be quite a bit better than other books in every aspect. Clarity being one of those aspects.
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Post by Destroyer on Jul 30, 2012 23:38:32 GMT -8
Christianity can become complicated when you have many thousands of interpretations. Everybody chooses to see things a different way and then you have some that say that all that truly matters is how you see Christ Jesus ~ screw the religion, screw everything, but just believe in Jesus Christ.
Is the grace of God so amazing, the atonement so powerful that things can be forgotten? You can throw away all that God did through his prophets? It ALL matters.
ANYWAY.
Is Christianity complicated? It doesn't have to be.
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Post by stevekimes on Aug 1, 2012 8:04:00 GMT -8
I agree with Destroyer. Christianity is one simple thing: Jesus is Lord. All the rest is window dressing and application.
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Post by Josh on Aug 1, 2012 8:33:37 GMT -8
I agree with Destroyer. Christianity is one simple thing: Jesus is Lord. All the rest is window dressing and application. I'm not so sure that's what destroyer is saying, though. Isn't he saying that you can't simplify too much when he says "it ALL matters"?
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Post by Destroyer on Aug 1, 2012 8:36:20 GMT -8
I'm saying that those other things do have some importance. You can come to know God without those things and have a relationship with him, but if you want to know him better.....
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Post by Josh on Aug 1, 2012 8:39:09 GMT -8
Agreed. I think that's just the way to put it; simple enough to be accessed by the simplest; complex enough that we will never plumb it's depths as we grow in Christ.
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Post by Destroyer on Aug 1, 2012 8:59:55 GMT -8
That's exactly right. You understand all of my initial post then?
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Post by Josh on Aug 2, 2012 17:28:20 GMT -8
Yep
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grokit
Intermediate Member
Posts: 50
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Post by grokit on Aug 9, 2013 10:25:37 GMT -8
All that the debating and discussing of these mysteries seems to achieve is individual interpretations to suit one's individual needs. Yes! It is very often the case that we work very hard to make God/the Bible/Jesus (or whatever other religion/thing we believe in) fit into our world view. I also think we are VERY OFTEN wrong. But this is human failing - it isn't evidence that God doesn't exist. It is only evidence that our finite minds can't encompass the infinite. Do you truly understand what a singularity is? Or do you really understand wave/particle duality? Current leading physicists like Stephen Hawking believe that the answers to the universe need to come from five different string theories ( M-Theory) that sometimes conflict and require 11 dimensions to make the math work. When reading about physics with a critical mind the BS detector pings quite often. The point is: Yes we make crap up to make things fit. But shouldn't we keep trying whether it's in physics or religion?
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