|
Post by robin on Apr 9, 2012 19:02:37 GMT -8
I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. Persecution for Christ's sake is one thing. But I as a Christian may find myself needing to defend my family (as God commanded me to) even with deadly force for reason not related in anyway to our faith. Endurance in persecution may come in many forms, but it seems a step too far to say that in no way can we ever defend ourselves or others with deadly force.
Not to mention, since we accept that Jesus and the Father are one and cannot contradict each other, I think this requirs us to have a more nuance position, that also considers what we learn about God from the Old Testament.
|
|
|
Post by stevekimes on Apr 9, 2012 20:48:27 GMT -8
Well, I don't feel that I need a nuanced position. I do not call Moses Lord nor David. And we all have things commanded in the OT that we do not obey, and joyfully. Since Jesus, the one I do call Lord, commanded me to love my enemies, to bless those who curse me, to turn the other cheek and to treat others as I would be treated, it seems that deadly force is something that I absolutely should have no part in, whatsoever. If someone commands me to act in a way to harm another, I will gladly refuse, for I should not obey man, but God.
However, this conversation should probably be taken to the pacifism thread, which I sadly abandoned and would be glad to take up again.
|
|
|
Post by robin on Apr 9, 2012 21:55:16 GMT -8
One more point before we move on. You say you don't call David or Moses Lord, and of course you shouldn't. But you are ignoring my argument altogether. You can't simply dismiss the OT because you don't like the message.
By the way, I do notice that you referred Paul earlier in this thread. Paul is not Jesus either, yet I consider him and his teachings to be as inspired as anything David and Moses wrote. There is no reason to devide scripture this way. To do so would be to devide the Father and the Son.
|
|
|
Post by stevekimes on Apr 17, 2012 20:22:03 GMT -8
I am certainly not dismissing Moses, David or Paul. I believe them all to be inspired, although you and I might define inspiration differently. Nor am I dividing the Father and the Son. Rather, I stand with the apostolic teaching that Moses gave the grace which is Law and Jesus gave the greater grace which is truth (John 1:16-17). And that the prophets spoke in visions and dreams, but the Son spoke clearly and revealed God with a clarity no one else could manage (Heb. 1:1-3; Matt 11:27; John 3:13).
The whole Bible is inspired. But only Jesus can make sense of it. We already know that some of the OT is fulfilled, passed away, without necessity to keep obeying it (unless you don't eat bacon and shellfish). The only way to differentiate what is kept of the OT and what is set aside is through Jesus.
That is my belief. You are welcome to disagree with me, of course.
|
|