Halloween

[kevin]

Originally posted 10/30/2006

Just interested in a soundoff on different peoples views on Halloween, in my family the views range from it being peoples favorite holliday to a day of evil to be avoided. There is huge diversity of opinion about Halloween out there and I am wondering what you all think.

[Josh]

Originally posted 10/30/2006

Well, first off I’ve noticed that there tends to be two general Christian responses to the subject of ‘pagan holidays’.

1. The first approach is to repudiate and avoid said holidays, arguing that pagan ideas, rituals, etc.. are in no way compatible with Christian beliefs.

2. The second approach would be to ‘redeem’ pagan holidays, or ‘Christianize’ them (I don’t much prefer the second term because it implies superficiality to some degree, but…). This approach seeks to affirm and share whatever the pagan holiday does hold in agreement with Christian faith, and to correct or redefine the elements that are contradictory to Christian faith.

When the early Christians spread the faith throughout pagan Europe, they found option two much more useful than option one. Thus, they took pagan holidays and turned them into Christian ones, such as Christmas, Easter, and Halloween. Again, the rationale was twofold:


a) That there were some things in those pagan holidays that did fit nicely with Christian ideas:

For instance:

There were many pagan spring festivals celebrated at the same time of year as Passover (Easter), emphasizing themes of death and rebirth,

Or, pagan holidays in December celebrating the coming of the sun (easily transferred into a celebration of the coming of the Son)

Many Christians (from some of the early Church fathers on up to CS Lewis) have seen these ‘echoes of truth’ in old pagan rituals as vague ‘premonitions’ of the eventual truth of Christianity- what Lewis calls ‘good dreams’ from God in pagan belief- ideas which, although they became corrupted to some degree over time, did point to the Truth

b) That the best way to fight the errant ideas of pagan holidays was not to retreat or draw undo attention to them by ‘demonizing’ them, but by claiming those holidays for Christ- triumphing over them with a proactive declaration of Christian truth.

This, obviously, is the view I resonate with more frequently.

Halloween, however, is a bit tricky because although the Church attempted to Christianize it by turning it into “All Saints Eve/ Day”- a celebration of the dead in Christ, that attempt has been much less successful than what happened with Christmas and Easter. There are definitely some erroneous beliefs deeply entrenched with Halloween as it’s commonly celebrated that still necessitate a cogent Christian response, but in general I’d advocate engaging those ideas in open debate, using those ideas as a bridge toward dialogue, than retreating in fear. I love the idea of All Saints Day, and would love to actually celebrate it one of these years.

Lastly, I should say, that I don’t think Christians need to fear ‘evil magic’ at Halloween. That idea is actually the false idea of pagan Halloween. God is Sovereign and we shouldn’t attribute to Satan undo power on this night, or any night. If we are walking with God and putting on his armor, and taking our kids out to knock on doors for candy in good conscience, we don’t need to be afraid of some ‘curse’ on us or demons flying into our house through jack-o-lanterns.

That’s my take, but I’d love to hear others who disagree or have a slightly different view. It’s a complicated subject, and a couple paragraphs don’t really do the topic justice, I realize.

Here’s a good article (I think) on Halloween from a Christian perspective:

www.equip.org/free/DH011.htm


Some All Saints Day graphics:

[Josh]

Thought I'd revive this one, as Halloween/ All Saints Day is Rolling Around.

In reading my last year's post, especially this quote:

Lastly, I should say, that I don’t think Christians need to fear ‘evil magic’ at Halloween. That idea is actually the false idea of pagan Halloween. God is Sovereign and we shouldn’t attribute to Satan undo power on this night, or any night. If we are walking with God and putting on his armor, and taking our kids out to knock on doors for candy in good conscience, we don’t need to be afraid of some ‘curse’ on us or demons flying into our house through jack-o-lanterns.

I guess I would qualify that by emphasizing the 'walking with God and putting on his armor' part. I definitely don't think we should be cavalier about some of the darker themes of Halloween.

Any new thoughts?

[pagan]

Haloween or Samhain as us Pagans call it, is when the vail of the two words is the thinist. It is also Pagan new year.

I want to point this out pagan's DO NOT DO EVIL/BLACK MAGIC! true pagans are only there to bring peace. We are enviromental people who want to look after the world. Causing pain and other related things are agains the wicca's way because of the rede and the three fold rule.

Alot of your christan holidays are based on Pagans. Eg:- At christamas anybody light yule log's or light a fire? Thats because of Yule wich is the celibration of the sun comming back.

[Josh]

hey pagan,

thanks for chiming in here. i'd really like to hear more from you on this.

also, i think it's important that christians understand that most wiccans/ pagans (which term would you preferably use in this case?), as you said, don't attempt to practice evil magic, etc..

when I mentioned above what I believe to be the "false idea of pagan Halloween" what I meant was not that pagans/wiccans believe that evil magic should be practiced then or any other time, but that they believe, as you said, that Samhain is a specially powerful magical day, when presumably spiritual powers (good and evil) are at their most potent. Is that an accurate portrayal?

my point was that christians need not fear the spiritual powers more on this day than on other days, seeing as how every day we are interacting with both good and evil spiritual forces*

a couple questions:

1) when you say that on Samhain the "veil between the two worlds is the thinnest", the two worlds you're talking about are the physical and the spiritual, right?

2) i'm curious... what evidence would wiccans give to back up this claim that Halloween is a day in which this veil is thinnest?

BTW, I hope you know that we really value respectful dialogue and discussion and listening to and learning from others here, so know that that's the spirit in which I'm writing. I sense that's probably important to you too.

* and of course, I don't think christians should be living in fear of spiritual powers, anyway. i'd say we should be instead vigilant of the enemy but realizing that christ has "triumphed over the powers" (colossians 2:15)

[pagan]

There is alot of branches to Paganism so there is lots of different view's on it. Because there is now book the path is of self deiscovery and means you can lern what you wish to lern.

I personaly call myself a Pagan even tho i would be more like a wiccan. My reason for this is because Wicca is Neo-paganism so im just a pagan lol.


I personaly dont belive there is good and evil. Because everybody is the same really. It's what we choose to say and do that makes a mark. And evrybodys vews on good and evil are diffrent so i woudt say there was sutcha thing as light and dark.


As for the vail being thinist: Samhain is when the God/Lord/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it(for me the lord), give's up his life and travils to the sumer lands. He is later reborn at Yule as the Lady's son and the cycle keeps going.

[Josh]

If you're interested in the discussion about whether there are (or aren't) universal moral values, whether there is a real good/evil, etc..I've written a fair amount on the boards about that:

Morality as Evidence

Comments, questions, counter-points would be appreciated, as usual.

Above, regarding Samhain, that helps me clarify what you believe about it. Still, what evidence that this is true (about the veils, etc..) would wiccans put forward to persuade others that this is actually true in the "real world"?

[pagan]

What proof is there that your Jesus guy did all the things he did? Ye it says it in a book but that books bein tained for thousands of years.

And also Wicca's/pagans would try to persuade other because thats not what its about.

[Josh]

Great questions.

There are discussion threads already started on these questions which you're more than invited to join. Here's a few to start with.

Did Jesus exist? The undisputed facts

Plus a whole grip-load of related threads can be found on the
Is the Bible historically reliable? sub-folder

And also Wicca's/pagans would try to persuade other because thats not what its about.

you meant wouldn't right?

if so, i have a follow-up question. do you believe that the things wiccans believeare really, literally true-- like as true as 2 +2= 4, or are they just figments of your own imagination?

if they aren't really true, why believe them? if they are really true and important, why not try to convince others in a respectful manner?

[pagan]

I found that downright disrespectful! Just because you are christan and have your set of belives does not make your's the only thing to belive! Mine is just as true as yours is!

[Josh]

klayer, i meant no disrespect. but, what i'm asking is, what's the basis for your beliefs?

not all beliefs are equal, right? for instance, belief in the historical existence of Robert the Bruce is much more valid than the belief I might hold that there is currently a giant pink elephant sitting next to me that no one else can see. why? because the first belief has lots of evidence, the second has virtually none.

that doesn't mean we should mock beliefs without evidence or be cruel or vicious in any way. people have the freedom in our countries to believe what they choose to believe, of course. but, as in any discipline from science to history to religion, evidence is what gives a belief or assertion it's force.

i'm a high school teacher. this happens all the time in school where a student has to write a "postion paper". what do they have to do? they pick an opinion on something and then try to defend it. and they don't get a good grade unless they back up their argument with some kind of evidence.

the reason i asked if you believed that wiccan beliefs were literally true or just in your imagination is that there are a lot of people who do believe their religion is, after all, just in their own head. they believe they can invent whatever they want, and even though it may not be literally True, they've decided it's true for them.

so, in order to even discuss the topic rationally, i was just curious whether you saw your beliefs as literally true, or just residing in your own imagination. the question wasn't as cynical as it read.

[Josh]

Shall we trot out the old Halloween thread for a trip down memory lane? 'Tis the season and all.

[michelle]

Oct 11, 2007 20:34:43 GMT -8 Josh said:

Thought I'd revive this one, as Halloween/ All Saints Day is Rolling Around.

Ahhh, All Saints Day...my favorite day of the year!!! ;D

[christopher]

I posted this on another forum the day after Halloween about two years ago, but I thought it might be worth sharing again. It was our experience one Halloween when we were in the midst of breaking out of the religious paradigm we were used to and stepping into a dynamic relationship with the living God.

Wayne Jacobsen (co-editor and publisher of "The Shack") loved it so much he posted it his website.



Reverse trick or treating

Historically, we’ve always felt that as Christians, we shouldn’t participate in Halloween in any way. Most people in our former fellowship were adamantly opposed to it. In the past, we usually would either go to a church alternative, or turn off all our lights and retreat to some room in the back of the house for a quiet evening.

Last night however, I felt really convicted when I came home from work, shut my garage door and turned out the lights while there were kids trick or treating just one house away. I felt like I was turning my back on them.

As I sat there for a moment, I asked the Lord “What do you want me to do?”. And I felt like he was saying to me “Did I ever ask you to completely avoid others on this night?”.

So I went and told my wife that I’d rather not be hostages in our own house and that we should go ahead and turn on the porch lights and let them come. Her first response was that we didn’t have anything to hand out. When I mentioned that our own kids have an abundance of candy in their own stock from previous birthdays and holidays, we both quickly discounted it as a bad idea to take that from our kids and give it to others’. However, my five year old (who was busy peeking out the window at all the other kids), overheard me and became excited at the idea of giving other kids his candy. Although we were shocked (he treasures his candy), we decided to let him hand it out.

As kids came to our door (some of them teenagers with deeper voices than mine), they were greeted by my two kids (ages 2 and 5) eagerly serving them “treats” and having fun doing it. Some of the kids had puzzled looks on their faces and some of them were clearly touched by it (I could tell by the adoring “ohs”).

There was a concern about whether we had enough or not, but I told my son that if God wants us to give out candy, He’ll provide enough. Not only did we have enough before the night was over, but our neighbor across the street came over with her bowl of candy to give some to our kids. I thought it was an awesome lesson to them of God’s provision in a language they could understand (candy)!

I’ve never seen him so excited to serve others and give away his own things before. It was a great opportunity to talk about kindness as a fruit of the Spirit and the joy of giving that God puts in our heart. I probably didn’t even need to explain it…he was experiencing it!

The lesson for me was that God is big enough to reveal Himself even on a day that doesn’t bring glory to His name. It’s amazing how much easier it is to hear His still small voice when there’s not the constant mooing of sacred cows in my head.

[Margot]

Christopher, I really liked your story because it shows that God's desire is to redeem every situation when it is offered up to Him.

For as long as I can remember, Halloween has been my favorite holiday. When I became a believer, (after high school,) I struggled a lot with why I was so enamoured with it. (Was I still harboring some secret, unconfessed evil from my past?)

What I finally realized, after years of dissecting it, was that, in my family, Halloween was the only holiday I could point to that was all about kids. Sadly, my parents tended to--how shall we put it politely?--basically suck all the joy out of every other special day in the year. In the truest definition of a dysfunctional family, my parents created some horrific scenario every time there was a holiday.
I remember knock-down-drag-out fights on Valentines Day, Christmas trees that were knocked over in their entirety, Thanksgiving dinners that were eaten at midnight because no one had thought to put in the turkey...you name it, the folks kinda rose to the occasion.

But, Halloween was foolproof! You didn't need them to cook a dinner, or decorate a house, or spend money for anything. Kids could take the whole thing upon themselves! Throw on a few costume pieces and some face make-up, grab a paper bag, knock on the door of some adult and they gave you--without complaining and out of their own volition--CANDY. Surely life couldn't get any better than this!!

Even the fact that, once I got home, my father went through my bag, took all the good chocolates for himself and left me the hard and chewy stuff no one wanted, couldn't snuff my great love for those couple of hours of freedom. (Although, for the past 30 years, I have personally refused to pass out anything that isn't chocolate to the neighborhood kids...)

Over the years, I tried to foster in my own kids the idea that Halloween was about nothing but having fun. They didn't have to embrace the evil, or the perceived evil. It was about nothing but dressing up in some non-offensive way and showing off their costumes to our appreciative neighbors who oohed and ahhed while they loaded them down with candy. My kids always seemed to enjoy Halloween for the mindless fun that it was. The next day all was back to normal, with wacky abandon put away for another year.

Oh, and I've never eaten a piece of candy without their permission.

Christopher, how good of you to turn the day into a celebration for God! What a great lesson for all of us!

[Josh]

Great thoughts, both of you. And thanks so much for telling a part of your "story" through this. Those are often the best posts, imo.

[shirley]

So, I was raised in a church that taught us Halloween was evil because of its pagan origins. When I was 21 I dressed up and went Trick-or-Treating with my boyfriend, and his little sister and her friend, for the first time in my life. I find that Halloween is a chance to be creative and to get to know your neighbors. What do Christians think about Halloween today? What are they trying to avoid or accomplish with their Harvest Party's? - Since the kids go there dressed up and eat candy.