Univ. Reconciliation? Eventual Salvation for All?

[christopher]

Good idea. Let me know when you find one.

[Josh]

Rev. 20:10


And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

How about this one? Is this a case of the aion debate? If so, can you walk me through the logic of a UR interpretation of this?

[rodgertutt]

Jan 13, 2009 21:27:20 GMT -8 Josh said:

Rev. 20:10


And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

How about this one? Is this a case of the aion debate? If so, can you walk me through the logic of a UR interpretation of this?

THE ALL-IMPORTANT KEY ISSUE

The true meaning of “FOREVER AND EVER”

Greek: tormented "for the ages of the ages" a limited period of time referring to the last two ages before God consummates His plan for the ages of time to become All in all 1Cor. 15:28. How do we know that? See further on in this message.

All of these combinations are used in the Bible: aion (singular), aions (plural), aion of the aion (singular/singular), aion of the aions (singular/plural), aions of the aions (plural/plural), and aionian (the adjective).
ALL of them refer to a limited period of time.

For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal.

Therefore there is no good argument against God saving all.
See
Copy and paste into Google
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

Copy and paste into Google
tentmaker books chapter eleven
www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
and
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

"THE EONS OF THE EONS" (plural/plural) COMPARED WITH "THE HOLIES OF THE HOLIES" (plural/plural)

There are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33, tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In II Kings 8:6 we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.

While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies."

Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons. As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5. Luke 1:33 says of Christ's "kingdom there shall be no end." While the kingdom itself will not end, the reign of Christ for the eons of the eons will end when He delivers up the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-26).

According to the Bible any "hell" will be "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement.
www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Copy and paste
tentmaker books chapter eleven
into Google

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

Copy and paste into Google
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

MY GREEK SCHOLARS – Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars he quotes in chapters 3 and 12.
Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS or click on
www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

[rodgertutt]

Here is a helpful chart regarding God's plan for the ages of time

Mistranslation of the Greek word "aion" is a master stroke of diabolical genius. Perhaps no other word erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion in the church. Because the understanding of the eons and Gods purpose in them has been lost, the church is divided on such important teachings as man's destiny, grace, election, salvation, security of the believer, judgment and other Issues. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in his quest.
www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

[christopher]

Josh wrote:

Rev. 20:10


And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

How about this one? Is this a case of the aion debate? If so, can you walk me through the logic of a UR interpretation of this?

Somehow, I knew you'd start here . I'm guessing that most UR-ists would probably take on the aion angle.

I don't have time to say a lot right now, but for me, the issue isn't the actual words and their Greek definitions and usages, but the genre of the epistle. It's an apocalyptic (thus very symbolic) vision. It's exceedingly difficult to derive concrete theology about such a sober subject with abstract passages such as this one (though many endeavor to). You already know that I don't necessarily see Rev 20 as being a future event about the end of all things. It might be, but in my mind that wouldn't be in keeping with the rest of the book IMO.

Anyway, we could talk about this one (and I don't want to prevent anyone else from doing so), but do you have any others from less symbolic passages?

[robin]

Wow and partial preterist/amillennialist wants to take a passage in Revelation literally? I do agree with what Christopher and Rodger have said, so I have little to add in regards to this passage. However, it would also need to be shown that when John mentions "the Devil, the Beast and False Prophet", he is referring to specific human beings, or that these represent any portion of humanity.

Robin

[Josh]

robin wrote:

Wow and partial preterist/amillennialist wants to take a passage in Revelation literally?

These comments seems imo to belie a misunderstanding of what literal/ symbolic actually means. First off, I never said anything about "how I'd like to take the passage". But more importantly, you both seem like you're equating "symbolic" with "undecipherable".

I never insisted that the passage be literal or symbolic, but I insist that it actually means something. What does it mean in your opinion, even if it's only a guess. It must mean something that can be explained within the bounds of the words that are used to convey the idea.

I don't give a fig about a literal lake or literal sulfur, but I do believe in the devil as a personal agent (as I believe John did) and I do believe something is happening to him in this passage, something that is a consquence for his choices, and something that is going to happen either for a long time or possibly forever.

How hard is that to determine???

The timing of the event may be under debate (though I strongly think it shouldn't be in this case due to it's proximity to a passage about the final judgment), but still, something concrete is being taught here by John/ Jesus.

It's not enough to just say "well, this passage is too nebulous" (actually I think this passage is quite clear in some regards).
I didn't bring up other passages because I've already worked through them. Why not take this passage seriously and take a stab at what you really think it means???

[rodgertutt]

Rev. 20:10
You already know that I don't necessarily see Rev 20 as being a future event about the end of all things. It might be, but in my mind that wouldn't be in keeping with the rest of the book IMO.

Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.

Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God

There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24)

Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).

Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.

So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?

They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).

They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:

Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.

All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)

All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)

All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.

So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.

In summary then:
The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28).
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.

Type into Google

The lake of fire Eby

www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/reconciliation-heavens.htm

www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.

How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).

It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.

The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.

What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it.

[robin]

Josh,
First of all, please understand that I was simply giving you a hard time, I wasn't questioning your interpretation skills or knowledge. Don't take such an offense.

Second of all, when I speak of universal salvation, I speak of human salvation, not the devils. Since the subject is the universal salvation of people, should we not look at passages that address that issue?

If you want to discuss this passage in depth, thats fine, though it may take us off the subject at hand. I will be back later with more thoughts.

Robin

[Josh]

So, do you not think that the demons will be saved? Undecided?

[robin]

So quickly I will give my understanding of Revelation 20:10.

It must be noted that the Greek actually reads "aionas ton aionon". Aion is the singular use of the word age, and aionas or aionon is the plural use of the word. If the translation were to be accurate would it not read "for ages and ages" or if one insists on using forever or eternity, would it not read "forevers and forevers" or "Eternities and eternities"? But that wouldn't make any since. So in order to discuss the passage can we agree that it is better to read the passage with the word ages rather than eternity?

So, do you not think that the demons will be saved? Undecided?

Do we know whether they were created free or not?

Robin

[rodgertutt]

Jan 15, 2009 13:36:10 GMT -8 Josh said:

So, do you not think that the demons will be saved? Undecided?

SATAN’S SALVATION ETCETERA - Grace super-exceeding!!!

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THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, Col. 1:20, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.
Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries.
Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.
But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

Copy and paste into Google
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS
www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/reconciliation-heavens.htm

C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

Copy and paste into Google
THE LAKE OF FIRE EBY

See www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF GOD'S GRACE WHICH IS ABLE AND DETERMINED TO SUCCESSFULLY INFLUENCE THE MOST STUBBORN OF WILLS.

We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.

CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm

[Josh]

"Ages and ages" works for me. It makes sense that those three (the devil, the false propeht, and the beast) would be the last out

Thanks, guys for your replies.

How about another phrase- when Christ describes hell (is it Gehenna here?) by saying "their worm does not die"- how is that seen from the U.R. view?

Matthew [Mark] 9:47-48

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

[rodgertutt]

Jan 15, 2009 21:41:04 GMT -8 Josh said:

"Ages and ages" works for me. It makes sense that those three (the devil, the false propeht, and the beast) would be the last out

Thanks, guys for your replies.

How about another phrase- when Christ describes hell (is it Gehenna here?) by saying "their worm does not die"- how is that seen from the U.R. view?

Matthew 9:47-48

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Josh, there is a thorough treatment of this specific subject here.
www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Just scroll down and click on GEHENNAH
Also click on DESTROY SOUL AND BODY IN HELL
You will notice that many other verses are also dealt with there.

[rodgertutt]

I am a "Christian Biblical Universal transformationist."
www.godfire.net/eby/restitution.html
www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/restitution.htm

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20.
And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in sin and suffering.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

[robin]

Matthew 9:47-48

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Hi Josh,
You had me confused. I could not figure out why this passage was not in my bible, then I realized that it is found in the book of Mark, not Matthew.

I believe this passage again refers to national Judgment. Once again Jesus use language that Prophets in the past had used when Judging the Nation Israel.

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

Robin

[Josh]

Sorry about that.

So, I don't have a bible nearby. Is "hell" in this passage Gehenna as well?