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Post by Kirby on Apr 21, 2010 15:21:28 GMT -8
I don't have time to fully respond to everything now, maybe later. But Chris, thanks for your honesty here! I have tried and tried how best to put that exact sentiment in previous posts, but always ended up skipping it!
More later!
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Post by carebear on Apr 21, 2010 16:28:58 GMT -8
Something interesting about this topic is I found out a member of my extended family (20 yr old guy) who had not such a great parent situation (but nothing horrible) is most likely delving into homosexuality right now. When I first found out I was shocked no doubt but my love for him (because I've known him since he was born) overpowers my disgust and I am able to move more firmly in love towards him as I show him the right way. I would like to transfer this love for the person to all people no matter what sin, so I can better reach them as I manuver through life with God (who is helping us all  ). |
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Post by moritz on Apr 21, 2010 23:46:30 GMT -8
Wow, Chris! I can't believe I liked what you wrote ;D I'd like to throw in a couple of thoughts as well but I'm covered with work right now so it'll have to wait at least until next week (hopefully I'll remember the thread). For the time being I'd like to congratulate all the participants of this thread for having developed such a great discussion. |
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Post by Kirby on Apr 22, 2010 11:19:44 GMT -8
Christopher wrote: In a sense, that is exactly what I am saying. I wouldn't go as far to say scripture is "flawed" although, as an eternal document, it will be read by a wide array of different audiences, and I do not think all of that diversity is meant to conform to one standard, especially one that was written in the perspective of a particular culture. As we change and grow as a culture, we have to expect our understanding of scripture will change and grow. The same has happened with other scholastic endeavors: science being the big one(the world is not flat, the universe is not geocentric). I do not see why theology based on scripture has to be any different. As we understand the human mind and how we relate to one another, our attitudes should change. I can not accept an unmovable, unwaivering set of instructions from over 2000 years ago, unless we can use it as something that can grow and change as we, as a community, culture, and race grow and change. (I feel the same way about the Constitution too, but that's another discussion!) Personally, I do not see the Bible as the final word. God continues to reveal truths about Himself and his plan continually. You may ask if he would contradict himself, and I say no. It is our understanding that may seem contradictory. A couple of other thoughts that occured to me: 1. I realized that our reactions to homosexuality are different because of the overtness of it. If we observe two men french kissing, and we believe homosexuality to be a sin, we say to ourselves, "Those men are sinning!" Whereas, if we see a man and a woman french kissing, we are unable to make that judgement without knowing more information. Are they married to each other? If not, is french kissing between an unmarried heterosexuals a sin? Are they both above the age of legal consent? etc. This overtness makes it far easier to judge than other sins. I was not thinking along those lines when I first made the homophobic accusation. 2. What is the definition of "homophobia"? I had always assumed it meant more than just fear of homosexuality. It could mean that an individual fears that they are themself a homosexual, and do not want to deal with those feelings. (example: middle school boys calling each other "fags") Dictionary.com lists the following definitions: a. unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality. b. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men. c. Behavior based on such a feeling. d. irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals Interestingly enough, antipathy, contempt, aversion, and discrimination all fit the accepted definitions as well as fear. While it seems clear that the people who have responded do not FEAR homosexuality, the fact that some believe it to be sin may show contempt, aversion, and discrimination, looking at it from simply a humanistic perspective. As far as antipathy, I have witnessed (and participated  ) that toward homosexuals and homosexuality many, many times within the church community. 3. In response to Christopher, I simply do not see how homosexuality is "dehumanizing", other than it goes against what Scripture states to be "the way". If I see scripture as how I want to live my life, I understand, but when I see Scripture the way I describe it above, then homosexuality is something I need to measure against culture and God's continual revelation of his will. However, the way you put it, it seems not homophobic, and I like that much more then what Westboro Baptist Church has to say about the matter.  |
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Post by Josh on Apr 22, 2010 15:32:59 GMT -8
How do you suggest we determine which parts of Scripture are God revealing truths and which parts are merely human understanding?
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Post by Kirby on Apr 22, 2010 16:15:20 GMT -8
Why do we need to determine that? Through faith we make decisions, and we learn from mistakes. My question tends not to be "Is there absolute truth?" but rather "do we need absolute truth?"
Further, I didn't claim that parts of Scripture could be true, and parts not. I'm saying that it's all true, but not the final word. I guess I am not a fan of "truths" but I seek Truth. Does that make sense?
There is not several objective truths, but rather one subjective truth that we need to explore. That truth does not need to be concrete, it could be murky here and there.
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Post by Kirby on Apr 22, 2010 17:46:07 GMT -8
In doing some online research, I've found a lot of info. I will share some soon, but for now, this quote made me think:
"Christianity isn't inherantly homophobic.
People are homophobic.
Some people use their religion to justify their homophobia.
Some of those people lived a long long time ago, and told other people they were told by god that gays were bad.
Thus, religious homophobia spreads like a bad game of telephone."
Interesting.
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Post by Josh on Apr 22, 2010 18:52:41 GMT -8
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Post by christopher on Apr 22, 2010 19:03:34 GMT -8
Moritz wrote: Wow Moritz! History in the making. I don’t know whether to celebrate or repent.  Just kidding. I’m actually thrilled you found something you liked there, can’t wait to hear what it is. I realize that doesn’t mean you agree with it, but I’ll certainly take it as an encouraging sign that maybe we’re not so polar opposite after all. |
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Post by christopher on Apr 22, 2010 19:06:56 GMT -8
Hi Kirby,
As always, I appreciate your candid and respectful response.
you wrote:
Just real quick, what you say makes a lot of sense from the perspective you gave. However, I personally take the perspective that scripture as we have it is authoritative primarily because I believe all authority was given to Jesus who: 1) affirmed the authority of the OT and 2) delegated His own authority to the apostles. I don’t believe that authority extends beyond the apostles, so progressive revelation is not in my understanding.
So, from that perspective (which is the perspective of the majority of non-Catholic Christians), is it a little easier to see how homosexual behavior could be seen just as “dehumanizing” as any sin? I don’t expect you to agree, but is it at least clear and coherent to you how we arrive at that conclusion?
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Post by Kirby on Apr 22, 2010 21:49:01 GMT -8
Of course. I see it plainly. Where we disagree is the authority issue you describe. It just doesn't mesh for me. The rest of the known created universe grows, changes, evolves (however you want to term it). Why should the Word be any different? Why would we possess free will and the ability to manipulate our environment but have a limited "handbook" (sorry, I don't mean that disrespectfully) that does not change?
More back on topic:
I don't have any stats to back this up, but I've heard that a lot of people, Christian or not, have changed their views drastically after having a close friend or family member "come out" without regret or desire to change. Has anyone reading this experienced a situation like this? I have a number of gay friends, but no one has ever "come out" to me. If anyone would like to share as Carrie did above, I would be interested to hear how you responded, how your relationship may have changed, how it may have changed your view etc. Anyone?
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Post by Josh on Apr 23, 2010 8:43:27 GMT -8
I know three people who are somewhere between friends and acquaintances who would fit that description and it has only strengthened my perspective.
I also know a handful of people very well who have struggled with homosexual tendencies and my experience with them has definitely strengthened my view that homosexual behavior is sinful and damaging.
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Post by Kirby on Apr 23, 2010 9:42:21 GMT -8
How so? I don't expect you to betray any confidences, so I understand if you can't share further, but I guess I have a couple of questions.
Was it damaging because of guilt? That is, the person was so guilty about it that their mental well-being was in question?
Did it destroy or damage relationships?
I don't ask these questions to further debate, but because I am genuinely curious. The gay people I know have not included me in their struggle, if they are indeed struggling with it.
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Post by robin on Apr 23, 2010 10:21:10 GMT -8
It may be important to consider the strong evidence that suggests that many homosexuals, especially men, were sexually abused as children. When compared with heterosexuals who experience abuse the numbers are staggering. I don't think homosexuality is natural in the way some assume. Homosexuality may be natural in the sense that it is a natural byproduct of adolescent sexual abuse. I hope that I'm not coming off as insensitive. In fact, I have a very close relationship with a family member who was involved in a gay relationship for a number of years. It is known now that they were sexually abused as a child. I'm pleased to say now that this person is no longer in a gay relationship, and is happily married with children, but they did indeed struggle for a long time with their sexuality. I have no doubt that the abuse experienced as a child contributed to their sexual behavior and tendencies as an adult.
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Post by carebear on Apr 23, 2010 11:27:54 GMT -8
If people are truly walking with God and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them, and they are listening to God (there is only one), they will know what is right and wrong....and they will find healing for their problems.
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Post by Kirby on Apr 23, 2010 11:40:32 GMT -8
Not at all, Robin. It is a valid point. Some of teh gay people I have known experienced sexual abuse. However, some of the straight people I know have also.
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Post by Josh on Apr 23, 2010 16:18:10 GMT -8
If people are truly walking with God and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them, and they are listening to God (there is only one), they will know what is right and wrong....and they will find healing for their problems. I don't think that there is any guarantee that someone who is walking with God and obeying him will get to the point in this life where they are completely free from this temptation or any other. Is that what you mean by healing or something else? |
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) that toward homosexuals and homosexuality many, many times within the church community.
